Opening ranges and sizes at 50bb as opposed to 100bb

LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 383 ✭✭✭
edited January 16 in General Concepts
I have a standard opening range and size for every position at 100bb 6-max online.
Some sites only offer 50bb games as max buy-in for certain stakes.

Should I tighten up my opening range, open smaller, both or neither?

I'm pretty sure I should open smaller to give myself more manoeuvrability postflop, but don't really know how my opening ranges should change. Having a smaller opening size means villains can defend wider than usual but that's countered/outweighed by them not having as much implied odds?

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭✭
    What's important is less not how many BB you play with than what is the expected SPR.
    Flop SPR, more than preflop BB, show you how much room for postflop play you have and where stands the leverage point(s).
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 383 ✭✭✭
    edited January 16
    If my standard open from HJ is 3BB and BB defends, the pot will be 6.5BB with an SPR of 97/6.5 = 14.9

    If I decrease that open to 2.5BB at and BB defends, the pot will be 5.5BB with an SPR of 97.5/5.5 = 17.7

    At 50BB, that will be 47.5/5.5 = 8.6, roughly half of what it would be at 100BB, as opposed to 47/6.5 = 7.2 when I don't change my opening sizes.

    Now what?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17
    All else being equal, deception goes down, high card value goes up. Take higher implied odds, speculative hands out of your range.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭✭
    I play a 40 BB stack, and open 25 % of hands from UTG, 30% from utg +1, 35% from UTG + 2, and 45% from last 2 positions. I also 3-bet about about 18% of hands from the SB or BB from a LP steal. It's fast fold, so quite often I pick up the blinds quite easily. Down side? PP aren't nearly as valuable, so I don't love them, and have considered tossing them from my UTG/UTG + 1 range, but I do pick up the blinds and often take down pots with a c-bet that I think they work out OK. I don't like to call much, just like live.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 383 ✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    All else being equal, deception goes down, high card value goes up. Take higher implied odds, speculative hands out of your range.

    And keep sizing the same?
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 271 ✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    jeffnc wrote: »
    All else being equal, deception goes down, high card value goes up. Take higher implied odds, speculative hands out of your range.

    And keep sizing the same?

    I think it makes sense in general to open smaller from EP and opening bigger as you get closer to the button. Although your range is stronger in EP, you usually dont want to play big pots OOP. Hope you dont mind that I jumped in there :)
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 383 ✭✭✭
    edited January 18
    Disagree with that. Our incentive should be the opposite (at 100BB anyway).
    EP is not a place to open for stealing the blinds but for thinning the field and building the pot so we can extract more value postflop. Towards the BU we should open smaller to give ourselves a better price for our steals.

    Hence it should go the other way than you suggested. My question is though whether we should open smaller with 50BB stacks instead of 100BB and what the reason for that would be.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    jeffnc wrote: »
    All else being equal, deception goes down, high card value goes up. Take higher implied odds, speculative hands out of your range.

    And keep sizing the same?

    I think it makes sense in general to open smaller from EP and opening bigger as you get closer to the button. Although your range is stronger in EP, you usually dont want to play big pots OOP. Hope you dont mind that I jumped in there :)

    This is viable if not "correct" under certain conditions so good for you.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    And keep sizing the same?

    Well I was saying "all else being equal" to avoid that question :) There are various ways to change this as well but it complicates things.

    I think the "classic" short stack number is about 40BB. There are some pretty well thought out strategies for playing that stack size (these usually revolve around removing a street of play from the betting, which changes poker strategy, e.g. getting it on on the turn, or even flop, depending on preflop betting). So I think one strategy, for example, would be opening a bit bigger with 50BB so that it plays roughly like 40BB. But then it changes slightly the ranges you're playing against (theoretically), so there are some moving parts you'd have to figure out... because if it were that easy, you could just open proportionally more with 100BB to make that play like 40BB too, which really doesn't work. So to answer your question, I'm not sure.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,633 -
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Disagree with that. Our incentive should be the opposite (at 100BB anyway).
    EP is not a place to open for stealing the blinds but for thinning the field and building the pot so we can extract more value postflop. Towards the BU we should open smaller to give ourselves a better price for our steals.

    Hence it should go the other way than you suggested. My question is though whether we should open smaller with 50BB stacks instead of 100BB and what the reason for that would be.

    I find all that intuitive, but note that Snowie prefers small opens from EP and larger one from LP.

    Ross and Doug made a PRO video about it: https://redchippoker.com/pro-video-hull053/
    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,511 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's look at how the math would work out with a hand.

    Let's say you have :QH: :QC: in a 1/3 game on the button. Your opponent raises to $10, which is typical for the table, with :JH: :TH: and you reraise to $30. Effective stacks are $120. The flop is :7H: :5H: : :2C:. The pot is $60 and you have $90 left, so shoving here is fairly natural and shouldn't seem too weird to your opponent.

    I put the :QH: in your hand for a reason, because it gives you 67% equity in the hand, rather than the 62% or so you would have had with :QD: :QC: (you have both a blocker and a redraw). Which means your opponent is getting 1.67:1 on his call, for which he'd need 37% equity, which he does have against an overpair without a heart, which is what he'd probably base his call on. (The subtle details of holding a heart in your hand would be considered by a Red Chipper such as yourself, but we wouldn't expect a typical 1/3 player to consider it.)

    If instead the stacks were $150, you would now be shoving $120 into $60, which actually is starting to look a little awkward and now your opponent might be thinking "why so much?". At this point he'd be getting 1.5:1 and certainly isn't enough to call even if you didn't have a heart (he'd need 40% equity).

    You can change the example so that you're raising and you just get called preflop, then you but the flop, and then shove the turn. And of course there are millions of ways this can play out with different hands.

    But the point is you have to think about different things, such as how big will my bets look? Do I want him to call or fold? So with a 50BB stack, you could raise preflop to $15 instead. If this is too big of a raise for the table (i.e. they fold too much), is this good or bad for you with 50BB? Is it going to change what hands they're calling with? Are they going to make mistakes with one raise size and SPR, but not with the other one? No simple answers, but you get the idea.

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