when to check a good hand

ryon341ryon341 Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
I've been guessing at this a bit, so I'd like to open a little discussion about it.

I open a small pocket pair and get a couple callers in CO and BU. Lets say :5d :5c in MP.

Flop goes :5h :7d :QD:

My first instinct is to check raise. What's the +EV way to play this?

I know - we know nothing about our opponents here. I'm looking for ideas. Let's assume we all have about 100 BB for the sake of discussion. Also, let's assume the HUD identifies everyone as Tight Regulars.


Comments

  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    There's 100 other people on this site more qualified to answer than me but here goes. A check raise is ok, even though you're the pre flop raiser it's gone multi way so you're not obligated to c bet. But I c bet 2/3 pot almost every time here because: 1) Balance. You should c bet your hits to cover for when you c bet your misses. 2) I'm targeting AQ/KQ here for 3 streets. If you raise pre then check then raise the hand is over. They'll sniff it out. 3) If they both check behind then a potential flush draw gets a free shot. Don't forget, you said they were tight. No, don't live in fear of flushes but....
    If I want to check raise this flop I do it with AK as a check raise bluff. If I really want to check this flop and 1 of them bets I just call and take my chances vs a flush draw. Now if 1 of them is loose aggro and bets every flop and every time it checks to him then by all means check call him down and let him hang himself.
  • ryon341ryon341 Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    Interesting. you said Cbetting every time shows balance, because they won't know if its value of bluff. I've been chastised for cbetting every time - which is my instinct.

    i feel like as the pre-flop aggressor, not cbetting sends up a huge flag that I missed my flop. So not cbetting would be me setting a trap.

    does that make sense?
  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    I never said c bet EVERY time. That in itself goes against balance. What I said was to balance c bets when you hit with c bets when you miss. A check raise after being the pre flop aggressor/raiser, imo, makes people stop and think a little.
  • ryon341ryon341 Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    If I am putting a check-raise out, it's the shut em down. Let em put some money in the pot, then let them know they are beat. I don't want them to see another card. Most of the time, when I check raise (which I must admit is rare), it induces folds. Am I thinking about this wrong?
  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    Why do you want to shut this hand down? You've got a great hand. Get some value or get AQ's stack.
  • ryon341ryon341 Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited January 19
    Perhaps this is one of my big leaks. I don't like taking hands to the river. If I can shut it down without them seeing more cards, I'm good with it. Small wins - less risk. This may be why my occasional bad beat sucks out all my efforts for the day.

    I can't count how many times my sets have been crushed by bigger sets on the river, flushes, straights, etc.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,919 -
    ryon341 wrote: »
    Perhaps this is one of my big leaks. I don't like taking hands to the river. If I can shut it down without them seeing more cards, I'm good with it. Small wins - less risk. This may be why my occasional bad beat sucks out all my efforts for the day.

    I can't count how many times my sets have been crushed by bigger sets on the river, flushes, straights, etc.

    I'd suggest you focus less on winning pots and more on maximizing value.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    Understood. Been there too. If the flop was low and crappy I may check but with paint on board I'm targeting AQ/KQ and making the draw pay at the same time.
    The original question was "when to check a good hand". IMO: check to induce a bluff from a loose player (these opponents were tight), check to let villain's complete air catch up a little. In this scenario you can get 2 streets from QJ, QT, and a huge pot from AK/AQ. So I start this specific scenario with a c bet.
  • ryon341ryon341 Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    ok. I've been going through a lot of videos and tutorials on the site. Many are way over my head. I have two master's degrees and this shouldn't be this hard. Can someone suggest a specific study plan to get me going in the right direction?

    i just watched SplitSuits video on balance where he is talking about calculating 70% of someone's preflop range after the flop. How do you do that in the 10-12 seconds that BetOnline gives you to make a decision?

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,919 -
    ryon341 wrote: »
    ok. I've been going through a lot of videos and tutorials on the site. Many are way over my head. I have two master's degrees and this shouldn't be this hard. Can someone suggest a specific study plan to get me going in the right direction?

    i just watched SplitSuits video on balance where he is talking about calculating 70% of someone's preflop range after the flop. How do you do that in the 10-12 seconds that BetOnline gives you to make a decision?

    Working through CORE should do it. It's designed as a coherent study plan. As to calculating ranges in 10 seconds, you don't, you do that as off-table work.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    Lol. I don't! I've read a little about the 70% and it is a bit tough.I just play live $1/$2 or $2/$5 cash games and I am strictly just a recreational player. Sorry if I gummed up your thread:) The original question was when to check a good hand but when the scenario had you check/RAISE the bells went off. Maybe think of that scenario like this: When you flop a great hand and the flop looks like the villain could have flopped a good hand (as in 2nd best), go ahead and bet. Hell, AQ may even raise you!
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 391 ✭✭✭
    ryon341 wrote: »
    Perhaps this is one of my big leaks. I don't like taking hands to the river. If I can shut it down without them seeing more cards, I'm good with it. Small wins - less risk. This may be why my occasional bad beat sucks out all my efforts for the day.

    I can't count how many times my sets have been crushed by bigger sets on the river, flushes, straights, etc.

    By shutting pots down early by overbetting your strong hands you allow V to play perfectly against you for the minimal price. You both harm yourself by losing value and improve your V by teaching them a very easy lesson about how you play the game.

    Why would you shy away from bigger pots with monsters? In the example above, sure another diamond could suck but there are two conditions which both have to be true for you to get drawn out on here.

    1) Another diamond has to come down. This will happen like 36 percent of the time if we assume your opponent has 2 in his hand.

    2) Your opponent has to have two in his hand!

    When you check raise against a drawy board, you do charge a higher price for draws and deny equity to your opponents when they fold. These are both good things to do sometimes but if its your default strategy, you will miss out on value.

    Getting drawn out against is part of the game and you have to embrace it to be be successful. You don't remember all the times your made hands do not get sucked out on because its not memorable. The only reason a "bad beat" is memorable is because it goes against what the math says is more likely. It's a deviation. It's variance. Embrace that and do it fast.

    I will also challenge your assertion that small wins = less risk. In that one moment, yes, there is less risk when you bet 2x pot with what is at the time the nuts and take it down. However, you deny yourself a ton of value that a hand with multiple streets of value can charge. And that value is going to offset the tough beats that you'll face as well.

    So inherently, there is more risk in playing only small pots. You win a small amount when you win and lose a large amount when you show up with the second nuts when other players want to max value against you.

    I also have a suspicion that your risk aversion could be related to a bankroll management situation. If you are not bankrolled to play your stakes, play lower stakes. I don't want to go into the dollar amount, but look up the videos on bankroll management and understand that its very important to not focus on the dollar amount of any decision. There's a video on emotional numbing I like on CORE on the subject.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,919 -
    Exactly. It's a poker trap T.J. Cloutier describes as "eating like a bird and crapping like an elephant."
    Moderation In Moderation
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ryon341 wrote: »
    ok. I've been going through a lot of videos and tutorials on the site. Many are way over my head. I have two master's degrees and this shouldn't be this hard.

    How do you know or evaluate how hard it should be?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ryon341 wrote: »
    ok. I've been going through a lot of videos and tutorials on the site. Many are way over my head. I have two master's degrees and this shouldn't be this hard.

    It's kind of good that it is, if you think about it.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I'd suggest you focus less on winning pots and more on maximizing value.

    This is similar to the concept presented by Miller and Sklansky in NLH:TAP. If you have the nuts on the river, how much do you bet? Some people try to bet an amount they think the opponent is sure to call. But this is the wrong approach. You should bet the amount that maximizes your long term EV. For example, 3 folds and one huge call might win more than 4 small calls.

  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 103 ✭✭
    "Some people try to bet an amount they think the opponent is sure to call. But this is the wrong approach. You should bet the amount that maximizes your long term EV. For example, 3 folds and one huge call might win more than 4 small calls." interesting thought... will be reading that book

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