Flopping Top Two

KindaKaiKindaKai Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
Live 2/2/3 10 handed

Hero $300 Villain $250

Hero picks up :Ks :Qd UTG and raises to 15.

UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 (villain) calls, and HJ calls.

Flop: :Kh :Qc :Jd

Hero c-bets 25, UTG+1 folds, Villain re-raises 75, HJ folds. Hero calls.

Turn: :Jc

Hero checks, Villain shoves.

Hero???

Comments

  • LoveFishLoveFish IllinoisRed Chipper Posts: 85 ✭✭
    1)shoulda jammed flop after you were raised.
    2) your cbet size was to small, 4ways to the flop, out of position, you bet 25$ into 67$. Should have made it 35-40$.
    3)we are in a very tough spot now on the turn. We are pretty much only beating AK, and K10.
    Probably a fold.

  • DemetriosDemetrios Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    KQo is usually a fold for me preflop UTG, because it's a hand I've gotten in trouble with in the past (though I'm curious to hear if people think that's too tight). In a multiway pot, when you make 2 pair you are very often up against a straight draw. In this situation, if were betting I think we'd want some fold equity on the flop, which to me would be 2/3-3/4 pot bet. As played, without any knowledge of opponents, I can easily find a fold here.

    Does checking the flop make any sense here, or are we c-betting all the time to make the drawing hands pay?
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    edited January 28
    LoveFish wrote: »
    1)shoulda jammed flop after you were raised.
    2) your cbet size was to small, 4ways to the flop, out of position, you bet 25$ into 67$. Should have made it 35-40$.
    3)we are in a very tough spot now on the turn. We are pretty much only beating AK, and K10.
    Probably a fold.

    Literally everything about this comment is incorrect except the advice to fold.
    You have tons of boats, straights, trips, and AK that are better calls.

    I also would not open KQo 10-handed UTG, unless very deep against players who make large river mistakes.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭✭
    KQo is usually a fold for me preflop UTG, because it's a hand I've gotten in trouble with in the past (though I'm curious to hear if people think that's too tight)


    KQo UTG starts to become a fold if:
    A. Your being 3-bet from IP players and your not comfortable in 3-bet pots, or are unsure how wide they do it, so you get scared and fold KQo because you don't wanna play dominated K or Q, which is smart.
    B. You think flopping a pair means auto c-bet.
    C. Players in your game flat AK and AQ a ton, and then see point two where you value own yourself.


    KQo is an open UTG if:
    A. Players only 3-bet AK, QQ+, which make's it an easy fold.
    B. You aren't a mindless c-better, and are comfortable navigating heads up or MW pots OOP.
    C. You realize that often KQ is a 1-2 street value hand.


    This above hand is actually a prime example of why maybe you wanna fold KQo, because this flop is certainly not an auto c-bet. Your OOP, and uncertain where to go when you get raised. So a basic principle of poker, and a good exercise to do is: why are you betting? To extract value? To deny equity? Cause "top 2 lol bet". For info (1/2 the forum triggered). Point being, if you can't really figure out why you're betting, might be best to check.


    If you say you're betting for for value, what hands are you extracting value from? AK? Do people often flat AK in your games? To deny equity? Sure, decent reason. How often will people raise you with J10? Point is, if your UTG range consists of AA-99, AK, KQo, you have sets, 2 pair's here. But you prob never have a 109 straight. Or A10. So, while you sure do you some very strong hands, you most likely never have the nuts. That means you have a lot of hands that don't wanna be raised big. That means....if you wanna bet some hands here for equity denial, let's choose our sets rather than our top 2, because this hand is a bluff catcher, and your OOP on a very wet board. So great, sometimes you c-bet here and everyone folds their pocket 4's and their 87ss, and you pick up the pop and hurrah, we do it, poker! But those times when you do get raised you're in trouble my friend, and while if you check and this checks around, and the turn comes, and now we gotta check again, and someone bets we just fold, don't kick yourself for saying "MAN, if I woulda bet, I coulda folded out J9 or J10 or AJ or whatever", that would be incorrect. By not betting, you avoid making a large mistake when you do get raised, because when you bet and get raised on this flop at these stacks, the money is all probably going in on the turn. So don't pick a hand to c-bet with that can't handle the pressure.
  • LoveFishLoveFish IllinoisRed Chipper Posts: 85 ✭✭
    @Phil Ebbs what are you doing differently here on the flop?
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Jfarrow 13's advice is solid imo.

    This is a fold almost exclusively UTG unless you have super specific reads on your opponents 3B ranges, which, realistically is rare.

    As played - AT, JJ, 9T, TT could all be in V's range if he's a looser player. If he's tighter you'd take out 9T I suppose, but AK and QQ+ are 3 betting here. With a wet board like that, we can't imagine that we're getting raised light - this is an easy fold.
  • TheSlothTheSloth Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    Given we are ten handed, folding KQo from UTG certainly cannot be considered too tight. It's the bottom of our range in terms of unsuited kings so lopping it off is fine. My default would be to fold.

    I would check the flop mostly as a defensive measure to avoid running into possible fancy raises with hands such as JT. Second best hands such as QJ and the JT will put the money into the pot for us and we are seeing many more turns and rivers.
  • KindaKaiKindaKai Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    Thank you everyone for the responses. I folded at the end. I would keep that in mind that opening UTG with KQo is a bit too loose if I didn't have a thorough plan. Jfarrow 13 gives me a new perspective of looking at marginal hands, and how a though process should be. Thank you very much!
  • Warrington_1Warrington_1 Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    Demetrios wrote: »
    KQo is usually a fold for me preflop UTG, because it's a hand I've gotten in trouble with in the past (though I'm curious to hear if people think that's too tight). In a multiway pot, when you make 2 pair you are very often up against a straight draw. In this situation, if were betting I think we'd want some fold equity on the flop, which to me would be 2/3-3/4 pot bet. As played, without any knowledge of opponents, I can easily find a fold here.

    Does checking the flop make any sense here, or are we c-betting all the time to make the drawing hands pay?

    Depends on the table dynamic. If the price is right and the table is playing passive its worth seeing a flop. the mistake was the bet sizing here. he didnt charge the draws enough to continue
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 391 ✭✭✭
    Demetrios wrote: »
    KQo is usually a fold for me preflop UTG, because it's a hand I've gotten in trouble with in the past (though I'm curious to hear if people think that's too tight). In a multiway pot, when you make 2 pair you are very often up against a straight draw. In this situation, if were betting I think we'd want some fold equity on the flop, which to me would be 2/3-3/4 pot bet. As played, without any knowledge of opponents, I can easily find a fold here.

    Does checking the flop make any sense here, or are we c-betting all the time to make the drawing hands pay?

    Depends on the table dynamic. If the price is right and the table is playing passive its worth seeing a flop. the mistake was the bet sizing here. he didnt charge the draws enough to continue

    If the table is passive, this is a spot where you can run into a monster and no one will ever let you know.

    If people are not 3 betting AK, QQ, or heck even KK, you can run into an extremely bad situation. I'm not saying KQo UTG is unplayable, but the reasons for seeing a flop with it you laid out can get one into trouble sometimes IMHO
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fold preflop by default. Limping or raising would be options in only unusual game conditions.
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    LoveFish wrote: »
    @Phil Ebbs what are you doing differently here on the flop?

    Differently than hero? Not much. I think the cbet size is fine, although X-calling once in a while should also be part of our strategy. I am calling the raise on the flop, and never jamming over it, and hating my life and probably folding the turn.

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