Getting it in with Queens??

rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 103 ✭✭
NL10 6max, literally my first hand at the table...

BTN raises a CO limper so I figure he's got a wide range trying to steal, SB (short stack) 3-bets, and I 4 bet enough to put him all in expecting CO and BTN to fold out, but the BTN raises, SB calls,.. What do you do? Is anyone jamming here or just fold expecting to only be up against AA or KK??

iPoker - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 124.6 BB (VPIP: 23.61, PFR: 13.19, 3Bet Preflop: 8.59, Hands: 442)
BTN: 106.2 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 100.00, Hands: 3)
SB: 22.9 BB (VPIP: 42.11, PFR: 4.39, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 115)
Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 74.5 BB (VPIP: 67.65, PFR: 19.12, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 68)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 22.37, PFR: 17.77, 3Bet Preflop: 7.23, Hands: 11,765)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:heart: Q:spade:

fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, BTN raises to 4 BB, SB raises to 7 BB, Hero raises to 24.5 BB, fold, BTN raises to 78 BB, SB calls 15.9 BB, Hero .....?




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Comments

  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 273 ✭✭
    That's a tough one. I assume BTN has a range of AK, KK+. I don't exactly know how much equity you need to make a breakeven call but I guess it's a fold.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's tremendously inefficient to raise to that size and then put this into your folding range, speaking of the definition of aggressive dead money, @jfarrow13
  • pokerdj4pokerdj4 NYRed Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    I just finished rewatching the pain threshold video with Soto and Berkey in Core. I think your preflop raise is along the lines of what they were discussing. Most of the time V will fold to often against this large of a raise. When V raises, it makes me think that he is doing so with AK KK+.

    We do not have a lot of information on this individual player so we do not know if he has an exploit where he is wider than AK, KK+. The population at this stake generally will only 5 bet for value. Until we get more information on this player I believe folding is the correct play.
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 103 ✭✭
    if interested here's how the rest of the hand played out, probably much as most expected.

    I was well ahead of the 3-betting SB (who i was trying to isolate) but BTN had the nuts.

    I jammed because flatting 80% of my stack didn't make sense to me either, i thought BTN could do this with hands like JJ, AK, maybe even TT.

    Was the initial 4-bet a good idea? Or should i just be flatting from the BB like this?

    The flop was connected (but not too scary for a 3bet pot), and I could have maybe found a fold on the turn with A showing up, but really there's no way not to lose some money on average when facing AA and holding QQ, or am i wrong?
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭✭
    Had a bit of an "ah-ha" moment watching this 6-max bot/reg (he never talks so I'm not sure he's a bot, but he sure does seem to crush it) I've picked up a bit of a sizing tell from him that even if he's bluffing or often he's value betting, he chooses a size that he's never folding or he chooses a size where he bet's, and will fold to a raise (but will also re-raise you, he's a tough cookie, and I don't have a HUD on him or really a huge sample size vs him, but it just seems like he has these time's where he goes really big raises, and I have yet to see him fold once he puts in a big raise like that). Either way, some of the hands I went back and checked some math, and even one time I saw him 5 bet shove 98hh and I was like....what? Went back, and checked.... and it was something like if his opponent folds 20% of the time, his EV sky-rockets, and even if they call it off with these hands, which at the 6-max's it seems like people stack off 100 BB's with JJ+, and aren't really afraid to 4-bet with hands like KQ and AQ but will fold them to shoves....yeah....


    29.19% 30.95% 0.20% 9h8h
    70.81% 68.64% 0.20% JJ+, AKs, AQs+
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 103 ✭✭
    interesting.

    I'm typically not trying to get 100bb in with QQ pre, and next time i'm in a situation like this i will likely just be flat calling (even tho in this situation BTN would have 4 bet either way). I figured BTN was trying to iso the CO limper wide as BTN often do, but happened to be up against the top of any range. I was OK with getting 23bb in and iso'ing the SB, but those plans changed quick.

    BTN had AA
    SB, the 3-betting short stack, had J8o

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭✭
    @rickmf
    Reverse your thinking to see if you shall fold or shove.

    Axioms:
    - SB is here almost mostly / only dead money
    - SB being so short, I'd not consider him for action aka I'd consider your raise as a 3bet and BU's raise as 4bet.
    - When V raises, he is committing and will always call (odds would be way too good to call with almost anything he re-raise with, except if he was bluff raising with pure napkins, which is pretty rare and can be ruled out).

    Question is then: what should bet BU's range for us to play for stacks +EV preflop ?

    Our pot odds is easy to calculate: 75.5bb / 222.9bb = 33.87%.
    Now play with V's range, and see what would be the tightest linear range he should have for you to have at 34% equity (barely +EV); then ask yourself:
    - Is this range realistic ? (If this range is unrealistic - too wide for a 4bet -, then we shall fold.)
    - Could this range be expanded, with more "value" combo QQ beat (like lower PP, strong broadways) or with bluff combos ? (More your can expend V's range, better is your EV).
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 103 ✭✭
    pokerdj4 wrote: »
    I just finished rewatching the pain threshold video with Soto and Berkey in Core. I think your preflop raise is along the lines of what they were discussing. Most of the time V will fold to often against this large of a raise. When V raises, it makes me think that he is doing so with AK KK+. ....

    QQ vs range of AKo AKs KK and AA gives ~40% equity. Remove AKo from that range and EQ drops to ~27%.

    At 6max there is ~6% probability of facing a higher pair when holding QQ (or so i've read).

    Without a lot of hands on villian its hard to say what range they would do this with, but as mentioned my raise creates a situation where I feel like I just had to jam.



  • Pizzo85Pizzo85 Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    rickmf wrote: »
    interesting.

    I'm typically not trying to get 100bb in with QQ pre, and next time i'm in a situation like this i will likely just be flat calling (even tho in this situation BTN would have 4 bet either way). I figured BTN was trying to iso the CO limper wide as BTN often do, but happened to be up against the top of any range. I was OK with getting 23bb in and iso'ing the SB, but those plans changed quick.

    BTN had AA
    SB, the 3-betting short stack, had J8o

    I had almost this exact same thing happen tonight to me in 5nl. He had AA to my QQ. All in preflop. Got crushed.
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 103 ✭✭
    It happens. Hard to keep your money when holding a premium against Aces.

    This was a strange one for me since I had little information (1st hand at the table), and all the action was from button and blinds.

    I will be flatting this in the future. In this situation BTN would likely be 4-betting either way to get SB stack, and I would likely have been dragged along into the mess either way since the board ended up mostly blanks if i remember correctly.
  • Pizzo85Pizzo85 Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    rickmf wrote: »
    It happens. Hard to keep your money when holding a premium against Aces.

    This was a strange one for me since I had little information (1st hand at the table), and all the action was from button and blinds.

    I will be flatting this in the future. In this situation BTN would likely be 4-betting either way to get SB stack, and I would likely have been dragged along into the mess either way since the board ended up mostly blanks if i remember correctly.

    I don't know, he had a 1/221 chance for pocket rockets and a 1/221 chance for pocket Kings. At odds of 2/221 being behind I still might stack. Seems like a flopzilla exercise I'll do later.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pizza you are confusing the odds of being dealt a hand with the odds of an action taken being with that hand.
  • rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 103 ✭✭
    According to this at 6max there is ~6% probability of facing a higher pair when holding QQ
    htgphvdl3wy5.jpg

    But yes the action definitely changes what likely hands are out there.
  • Pizzo85Pizzo85 Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Pizza you are confusing the odds of being dealt a hand with the odds of an action taken being with that hand.

    I think you are right. My issue is with the particular opponent. The guy that beat me was a Lag (possibly a fish?) I just got pt4 and have about 150 hands with him (I know it's a small sample) and his VPIP is at 50%. Would a better play have been to call his 3bet instead of 4betting him?
  • Pizzo85Pizzo85 Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    rickmf wrote: »
    According to this at 6max there is ~6% probability of facing a higher pair when holding QQ
    htgphvdl3wy5.jpg

    But yes the action definitely changes what likely hands are out there.

    Awesome, thanks. Where did you find this?

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