Post Flop Line

CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
edited February 2 in Live Poker Hands
2/300 spread limit in AZ

Been playing for about 2 hours with the same folks, V1 is OLC. WSOP visor, mainly been doing crosswords in a notebook and plays very ABC. V2 is a 24ish-year-old kid, who has been opening wide and often, tends to get caught and fold to too many re-raises.

V1 - UTG+2 limps
V2 - HiJack/ effective stack at $350 makes it $15

H -on button 3Bets to $40. with :Ah :Jd

My rationale there was that MP folds, and cutoff calls. Surprisingly both call.

At this point, I'm ranging V1 at TT, JJ, and broadways with the exception of AK which she has raised PF before. V2 - getting 4:1 on completing preflop I put on 77-99 (he would usually open to $25 with larger pairs) as well as just about every A-X, some suited connectors and broadways.

Flop comes :5s :6d :9h Pot: $125

Both V's check, Hero bets $80 - I elected to go with 2/3 sizing to keep my range advantage and represent QQ-AA.

There are only 9 combos of sets that they could be trapping with, and 12 combos of 7,8 - and based on the PF action, I wasn't worried about either of them holding onto 7,8 which leaves 9 realistic combos that could continue.

Was this the right way to play this flop with V's showing a perceived weakness?


Comments

  • PapaGiorgioPapaGiorgio Red Chipper Posts: 65 ✭✭
    How many unpaired hands are in their range? Based on your read of v1, I think her limp-call 3b range is pair heavy. I would expect her to call (maybe XR if she is the type to do such a thing). I expect v2 has the wider range. Would you expect v2 to call with overs? I might size down a bit since it was a 3b pot, maybe $50. This allows you to fold to XR with less risk. I agree that 87 probably isn't in v1's range, but I would include it v2's range.
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    edited February 2
    I would say 8 unpaired hands for V1 - wider for V2. Puts a lot more possible combos in their range that miss completely, or catch a top pair with the 9. Mainly T9-K9 could be in V2's range. The purpose of my bet was to get folds by applying enough pressure to reach their pain threshold thus getting a weak top pair to fold.

    My image to this point has been TAG -at this point, I've only taken one hand to showdown, which was AQs from HJ where I flopped the nut boat. so if I have to shift into V's position, I think I could definitely have JJ-AA in my range here with a 3B pre-flop.
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    FWIW - V’s both folded out here
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    edited February 4
    Love the 3bet pre, but hate the flop cbet, and it is compounded by poor sizing. This is a terrible terrible board to cbet, and why on earth are you sizing up when the only premium hand you can have is 99? It might have gotten through here, but both villains should have nearly all sets and can have straights. This board is much much better for their range than yours. I would never cbet this board, even with an overpair, and you don't even have any backdoors. If you are bluffing this, are you also bluffing AQo? AKo? If so, you are bluffing way way too much.

    You say you want weak top pair hands to fold. They absolutely should not be folding top pairs, pair plus gutters, and 2nd pair gutter hands to a flop bet. If they are than maybe this is a neutral EV bluff, but I highly doubt that the wide opener in HJ is going to fold top pair here, nor should he.
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    @Phil Ebbs so instead of trying to keep representing a premium pair, you’d elect for a check behind here? Unless a J hits on the turn I’d imagine it would be a check/fold to a bet situation.

    Is it worth it to leave $120 on the table and not fire a bullet in position when Vs are showing weakness?
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,705 -
    edited February 4
    The three-bet pre is better than calling. I think it is completely optional as I do not expect this to be a huge money-maker, but it will not be a big loser if played well either. I think I raise a tiny bit bigger, but once the OLC calls, the OR is calling also.

    On the flop:

    This is not your flop. I would not expect to find a lot of good flops with AJo, so be ready to win pre, flop good, or give up. This is a give-up flop.

    There are two reasons to bet in Hold'em:

    1.) Make the pot bigger in case you win.

    When called, I do not expect :Ah :Jd to have much equity on:

    :5s :6d :9H:

    We are not betting for reason number one.

    2.) To deny equity

    You can deny equity to hands like :KS: :QC: or :QD: :TD: but there is not a really strong case that this is the real reason for your bet.

    We can come up with hands that will fold out equity against us. However, we can also come up with a range of hands that continue against us. The ratio of these and the money spent to accomplish this does not seem favorable on the face. It gets worse with two opponents. Double barreling seems suicidal.
    AZMatt wrote: »
    @Phil Ebbs so instead of trying to keep representing a premium pair, you’d elect for a check behind here?

    Even a premium pair does not fare well on this board given the pre-flop action. Even if I had :AS: :AD: here I check behind. Small hands deserve small pots.

    This is a board that is won by straights, sets and two pair if the pot gets big. You are engorging the pot with a hand that will lose when called. You have two opponents, so the chances of this bet getting through go down literally exponentially.

    You got lucky to get two folds and learned the wrong lesson. This sin went unpunished.




    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Thanks @Doug Hull and @Phil Ebbs - good insight, definitely should have thought “what is the purpose of this bet” rather than what I want my opponents to do in this situation.

    Dodged a bullet on this one, next time in this situation it would be a check behind and ready to abandon ship on a missed flop. “Win pre, flop good, or give up” are good buckets for this one.
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    AZMatt wrote: »
    @Phil Ebbs so instead of trying to keep representing a premium pair, you’d elect for a check behind here? Unless a J hits on the turn I’d imagine it would be a check/fold to a bet situation.

    Is it worth it to leave $120 on the table and not fire a bullet in position when Vs are showing weakness?

    representing a premium pair here and checking behind are not mutually exclusive. Personally, on this board I would be checking back AA here 100%, and KK a majority of the time.

    Checking back here is not "leaving $120 on the table". You have six clean outs to continue, and turn can go XXX probably 10-15% of the time here as well.

    I'm very confused as to why you think your opponents are showing weakness. I don't know what V1's range looks like, but V2 absolutely should have nut straights, two combos of two pair, and all sets here, and the only set you probably have is 99. This is a super dangerous board for V2's range, so even with my betting hands (say, 99-QQ, etc.), I'm betting this flop very small.
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Thanks for the input @Phil Ebbs - thought about these spots a lot more playing last night, and avoided some huge mistakes by electing to check behind in these spots. Two that stand out to me were turning a Q that help up, with AQ, and folding out AJs to a V that took top set to show-down on a very similar board.

    Any specific recommendations from CORE or elsewhere here that I should be checking out to plug this leak further?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,919 -
    The second main section of CORE L1 looks at why we bet and Postflop L2 looks specifically at c-betting. For PRO members we also have an excellent video "C-betting 101" by w34z3l.
    Moderation In Moderation

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