Card dead on a bluffless table

blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 144 ✭✭
I had a losing session yesterday due to my inability to exploit situations when running card dead.

I went 6 hours with 0 showdown value holdings whether I was in the pot or not,

I tried to adjust by 3bet squeezing lighter, C-betting and donk betting more aggressively, floating and throwing out big bets on rivers, floating and x/r-ing turns, and before I knew it I was down to a single stack.

I wasnt involved in too many hands to begin with, maybe a hand an orbit and a few orbits without playing at all,

but it seemed like no matter what I did I couldnt get a single bluff through, and bluffing was my only option.

I topped up and changed tables where I continued to run card-dead, and found myself in the same predicament. Alot of guys drinking and just not giving a damn gambling (it was Superbowl Sunday after all),

My question is what do you do when youre running card dead and your bluffs arent getting through or youre getting called down light because you've been caught bluffing too much?

Comments

  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 190 ✭✭
    I play tight in loose games and will occasionally be noticed as a total rock when I'm card dead. It doesn't matter. They came to play, not fold, and folding is the best way to exploit my tightness. They just don't want to fold PF. I still get action.

    Wait. Play solid. Do not sweat.

    I've been 4 sessions without JJ-AA and I still booked 4 wins.
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 144 ✭✭
    @In The Dark

    I hear ya but will you really wait 15 orbits if you have to?

    And im not talking JJ+, I go some pretty significant stretches without those too,

    Im talking the most playable hands youre getting are things like 75s, 8Ts, QJo, 22-66, etc.
  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 190 ✭✭
    blindraise wrote: »
    @In The Dark

    I hear ya but will you really wait 15 orbits if you have to?

    And im not talking JJ+, I go some pretty significant stretches without those too,

    Im talking the most playable hands youre getting are things like 75s, 8Ts, QJo, 22-66, etc.

    From my notes: "You can't outplay the donks. Out-fundamental them."

    And by "outplay" I mean specifically force them to fold at my will. They don't.

  • Eon137Eon137 Red Chipper Posts: 161 ✭✭
    I suspect we all have experienced this sort of thing. At tables where no one is folding, you have to show up with a hand to win. Making hands is not how we win at this game. So the scenario you described is one where you do not have an edge, and is not as favorable a table as it may seem with all the weak players sitting there with chips. You can wait it out and blind away chips, table change and try to get into a better dynamic, or call it a day. Sure, the cards may come your way at any time, but we have zero control on when that is going to happen, and even AA is not a favorite vs four players determined to see a river.
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 144 ✭✭
    @In The Dark
    You're right you're right I shouldve just called it a night in hindsight, I think i let my greed get the best of me seeing all these rec's and fish with chips.

    @Eon137
    This is a very frustrating concept youre actualizing. I play in 1/2 with $500 max buy-ins on weekends typically after 6pm to get action from the loose fish that dominate the player pop. Its either that or grind out a 8am-2pm shift with the OMC's and half-awake regs that arent trying to risk the stack they spent all night and day grinding for.

    I want to take a shot a 2/5 to play against better thinking players so I can see how they're playing as well as be able to pull off the moves that I've been studying and working toward. But I simply cant handle the risk of losing my whole bankroll in a few sessions, therefore undermining my ability at a higher level of play.

    That said, im stuck like the rest of the schmucks playing lottery poker

    Wondering if I need to take a break from poker for a year to stack a bankroll for 2/5 without affecting my liferoll, but then I feel like thats a year of table experience lost that im never getting back.
  • LoveFishLoveFish IllinoisRed Chipper Posts: 85 ✭✭
    edited February 4
    I suggest for taking shots. Buy in at the 1/2 for 200-300$ when you get to 500$ put your name on the list for 2/5. You semi free roll it. This is if you don’t have the funds. But if you have a job/career you should still be able to afford taking a shot here and there with a full stack of your own money. Or 2 winning sessions in a row at 1/2 take your profit and the next time you go put your name on the 2/5 list
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 393 ✭✭✭
    blindraise wrote: »

    Wondering if I need to take a break from poker for a year to stack a bankroll for 2/5 without affecting my liferoll, but then I feel like thats a year of table experience lost that im never getting back.

    The answer to one session of being a little card dead is definitely not to save up a stake to play 2/5 in a year from now.

    You're going to be card dead at times and card-deadedness is going to become much more common the more you play. Spend that time focusing on what other people at the table are doing. Practice your math as the pots are going on, calc the odds being given and equity needed for people to continue. Find something that is going to help move you forward with your game.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,889 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you find yourself posting about unfavorable distributions of cards you are not ready to move up for two reasons, not just one.
  • aftrglwaftrglw Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    blindraise wrote: »
    I think i let my greed get the best of me seeing all these rec's and fish with chips.

    You aren't entitled to their chips, and getting annoyed over it is super obnoxious. Moreover, you should be rooting for them to have a good time and win. If poker isn't profitable for them, it needs to at least be fun or why come back? if you're not getting cards and it's getting to you, go home or grab a beer and cheer up.

    blindraise wrote: »
    This is a very frustrating concept youre actualizing. I play in 1/2 with $500 max buy-ins on weekends typically after 6pm to get action from the loose fish that dominate the player pop. Its either that or grind out a 8am-2pm shift with the OMC's and half-awake regs that arent trying to risk the stack they spent all night and day grinding for.

    I want to take a shot a 2/5 to play against better thinking players so I can see how they're playing as well as be able to pull off the moves that I've been studying and working toward. But I simply cant handle the risk of losing my whole bankroll in a few sessions, therefore undermining my ability at a higher level of play.

    That said, im stuck like the rest of the schmucks playing lottery poker

    This suggests that you're not ready to move up. You have only learned how to play profitably against one player type. I used to think just like you, to be honest. There's a lot of profit playing against nits and regs, I actually like it more in some ways because I don't always have to make a hand... I just grind out medium sized pots. I think "How to Crush a Table Full of Nits and TAGs" on 3/27/18 does a good job explaining how.
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 144 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    If you find yourself posting about unfavorable distributions of cards you are not ready to move up for two reasons, not just one.

    Which are?
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 144 ✭✭
    @aftrglw
    Never said I felt entitled, and where besides here do I sound annoyed? I didnt post this thread to complain about being card-dead, I posted it to see what others are doing when theyre (as the title suggests) card dead on a bluffless table.
  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 190 ✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    On Card Deadness:
    Some people seem to think that every fold gives them a drip into their "fuck it" reserve tank and when that tank is full they can do something they know is wrong because, well "fuck it" Don't be that guy. Do the right thing, even if that is fold.

    I have a play here that's not wrong and scratches the itch.

    If I believe that the table might be partially aware of my tight play I will find a spot B or CO where I can blind raise a limper or two. Of course you'll need to fake a peek but chances are nobody is paying attention anyhow. My range is way in front of theirs. Play accordingly. Cbet most every flop that favors your range and peek if it favors their range. This has been profitable and amusing.
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 144 ✭✭
    @Doug Hull

    Damn, that post really hit home. Thanks, exactly what I needed to read and what I now need to learn.

    @Jordan Power I will do everything you suggested as I already do but now more. Thanks.
  • aftrglwaftrglw Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    blindraise wrote: »
    @aftrglw
    Never said I felt entitled, and where besides here do I sound annoyed? I didnt post this thread to complain about being card-dead, I posted it to see what others are doing when theyre (as the title suggests) card dead on a bluffless table.

    I took your bit about getting greedy because the fish had money and your comment about "playing lottery poker" with "schmucks" as being bitter. If I was off base, I'm sorry. I've seen a lot of people sulk in other forums that they couldn't get more money off fish and I find the entitlement to other people's money kinda gross. Even Andrew Neeme, whose vlog I enjoy a lot, did it a little at the end of this video:

    As for your original question, I've struggled with being card dead and trying to force results too. Nowadays, I mostly try to just embrace the variance and in working on not trying to force anything. Watching blogs has helped me understand that sometimes pros lose money and fun bad, but they usually have the presence of mind not to lose multiple buying forcing results. If I'm playing against calling stations or LAGs and can't make a hand, just have a beer and chill. Also, the podcast I referenced will help you start to think about how to beat those nittier tables.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ha, I was just thinking about this yesterday. It never ceases to amaze me - in certain player circles, it doesn't matter how tight I appear to be. When I'm card dead, I could literally not play a hand for 3 hours and yet when I raise the flop I get 4 callers with the best hand among them being middle pair no kicker. We sit around here talking incessantly about how to play more sophisticated strategies against players who think, and sometimes the hardest thing is to reign it in and do the simplest thing right. Just wait, and if that means losing $100 because you're card dead for 8 hours instead of losing $600 because you tried to bluff, then so be it - you're +$500 for the night. It's all a question of adjusting your perception of time. If one session were like one orbit or even one hand in the long run, could you handle it? You wouldn't be annoyed if you were card dead for one hand, right?
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
    blindraise wrote: »
    @In The Dark

    I hear ya but will you really wait 15 orbits if you have to?

    And im not talking JJ+, I go some pretty significant stretches without those too,

    Im talking the most playable hands youre getting are things like 75s, 8Ts, QJo, 22-66, etc.

    Kind of sucks if you have a hike to and from the casino, but days like that happen. I personally will just say "fuck it, not my day" and get up and leave. I'd rather do that than tilt off my stack (which I have absolutely done in the past) playing subpar hands to make something happen. I only live about 20 mins from where I play though, so a little different when I know I can come back tomorrow no problem.

    If you're going to stay to power through the deadness, just take a deep breath and wait for cards to come. Independent probability won't keep you down forever, but I'd advise against trying to turn marginal hands into bluffs.
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 144 ✭✭
    @jeffnc
    Wise words. Doing the simple, logical thing is oddly enough one of the biggest challenges to playing this game, and as Mr. Hull referenced what you're getting at, I honestly never thought it being "ok" to fold for 6 hours straight if I have to, mostly because I've never seen anyone else do such a thing. I will definitely be taking this advice to heart however, thank you.

    @AZMatt

    Wow thats actually my biggest problem when it comes to running card-dead. I recently moved to Utah where gambling is (obviously) illegal, so every weekend I take the 1 1/2 hour drive to Nevada. After calculating hotels, food, and gas, I feel obligated to book at least a small enough profit to cover expenses. Still dont know which is worse; the commute or California rake
  • The_Juic3The_Juic3 Red Chipper Posts: 29 ✭✭
    I try to use the times I am card dead to focus on something else that isn't the card deadedness (not sure if that's a word). If I am playing with familiar players (as often I am) I will choose one and I will place my attention on them as fully as I can (I tend to talk a bunch, so to say they have 100% of my attention would be a lie). I will try and spot as much about they're game as I can, how their demeanor changes during hands, if how they bet changes, how often they are playing, etc. all of the stuff that we are supposed to be doing when we are involved in hands.

    I think it can be pretty easy to "check out" mentally when we are card dead/frustrated and this practice helps me better utilize that time.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    blindraise wrote: »
    Wow thats actually my biggest problem when it comes to running card-dead. I recently moved to Utah where gambling is (obviously) illegal, so every weekend I take the 1 1/2 hour drive to Nevada. After calculating hotels, food, and gas, I feel obligated to book at least a small enough profit to cover expenses.

    Yeah, that situation sucks. It's not easy to put things in perspective of the "long run" in that situation.

  • Warrington_1Warrington_1 Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    Something similar just happened to me. Loose play and I went card dead. The guy to my right topped off 4 times and I saw him push all in over and over with just top pair. They kept feeding this one maniac and in the end he beat me in a all in with pocket 66 where he managed to make a straight.... Who calls all in against someone who looks like a NIT because they are card dead with 66 when the board had you at 3rd best pair.... I could feel myself tilting so I called it a night. The important thing is that you saw the leaks even if the cards didn't cooperate.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,923 -
    This might be a good point to remind everyone that long-term winning players lose one session out of three, and that this is actually a very good thing.

    https://redchippoker.com/poker-downswings-the-final-mental-game-frontier/
    Moderation In Moderation
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 203 ✭✭✭
    There's nothing like a spate of run-good to put everything into perspective. When you hit top pair on every flop, and gunshots on the rivers you need them, you remember just how easy it is to crush the game when the cards allow it.

    With that in mind, my perspective is, what's the rush? You're not experiencing run bad, just card-deadedness. If the cards don't let you come to the party, just ride out the wave and if you find yourself getting bored or frustrated, focus on something else, like watching all those hands you're not involved in, practising putting opponents on ranges, or trying to find spots where a bluff might actually have worked.

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