Tough River decision 2/5

LoveFishLoveFish IllinoisRed Chipper Posts: 93 ✭✭
edited February 7 in Live Poker Hands
Hand of the day. 2/5live

Effective stack hero 1200$

MP limps 5$ (900$ stack)
In HJ with AsJs raise to 30$
Button (610$ stack) calls,
MP calls.

(97$)
Flop Jh 10c 4h
MP checks, we elect to check(mistake?) {my reason for checking was because button was a cannon, he was playing a very wide range, I wanted to check call all the way down}
Button fires 55$

MP calls
We call.

Turn(262$)
Jh 10c 4h 9c

MP checks
We check
Button bets 125$

MP calls
We call

River(637$

Jh 10c 4h 9c 4c

MP checks
We check
Button all in for 400$

MP tank folds.
On us what do?

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You needed PIO to figure that out? Or is it that we should only do what PIO does?
  • ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    LoveFish wrote: »
    Hand of the day. 2/5live

    Effective stack hero 1200$

    MP limps 5$ (900$ stack)
    In HJ with AsJs raise to 30$
    Button (610$ stack) calls,
    MP calls.

    (97$)
    Flop Jh 10c 4h
    MP checks, we elect to check(mistake?) {my reason for checking was because button was a cannon, he was playing a very wide range, I wanted to check call all the way down}
    Button fires 55$

    MP calls
    We call.

    Turn(262$)
    Jh 10c 4h 9c

    MP checks
    We check
    Button bets 125$

    MP calls
    We call

    River(637$

    Jh 10c 4h 9c 4c

    MP checks
    We check
    Button all in for 400$

    MP tank folds.
    On us what do?
    Hello, thanks for sharing your hand history.

    Your plan on the flop was to check call all the way down, so why are you thinking of abondoning ship on the river? Especially when it was one of the best card for you in the deck (front door flush misses, and very unlikely he was blasting with a 4). Was it because of the relatively large bet? was it because KQ got there on the turn?

    Or was it because your decision on check calling all the way down on the flop was flawed? Let’s take another look. With tptk on the flop with a draw heavy board, what type of runout are you hoping for? Are you comfortable calling down your stack when a K comes? What about a Q, T, 9, 8, 7 or any heart? That’s 28 cards, and there is around 90% chance one of those cards will show up on the turn or the river.

    With that in mind, reevaluate your flop decision. Do you really want to give up the lead and play a guessing game with an opponent who is more than willing to bet on anything?
  • JayCageJayCage I'munna b where I'm at Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Whats up,

    Just dipping my toe into the forums. so for what its worth...

    I like a x/r on the flop. If you say you checked to button cuz he likes to blast off, he did what you wanted. When mp comes along then I really think its time to put in the raise. If you check to the button and he checks back then you can try to play a smaller pot when the turn comes a 9 or heart or another scary card.
    I know you said he was a cannon...Was the guy firing a a lot of 3 barrels bluffs or just playing loose. When he is playing like that he can get paid off on his big hands. I would just fold the river.
  • LoveFishLoveFish IllinoisRed Chipper Posts: 93 ✭✭
    @Erinning I am generally c betting here most of the time. The reason I checked was button was a cannon and knew he would fire. My plan blew up in my face on the river though as I leveled myself into thinking that he would never jam into 2 people without the goods, I did not expect MP to come along for the ride.

    I ended up folding the hand face up after taking some time.

    Villain tables 10 8 of. Hearts. Great bluff on his part. I guess I just didn’t have the balls to follow through on my original plan.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You've answered my question, thanks. At the moment, I found it bizarre to make such a fundamental idea sound novel.
  • SaulSaul Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    Hi! Thanks for posting this hand.

    I understand the decision to check on the flop, as you believed the villain would fire a bet nearly all the time. Once he did, I would have considered a check/raise. With AJs, it's hard to flop better than top pair, so on the flop this should be a hand you're willing to go with against a loose/aggressive player.

    I'm not a fan of trying to check it down all the way starting with this flop. Roughly half the deck is a problem for our hand and it is likely one or more of those cards comes out on the turn and river.

    As played, I'm probably finding a fold on the river. We simply can't beat anything other than a bluff. Good for him if he is bluffing...and file that away for next time.

    Don't fold face up. Do not give away any information you are not required to provide. A thinking villain will use that info to abuse you in future hands.
  • ErinningErinning Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    LoveFish wrote: »
    @Erinning I am generally c betting here most of the time. The reason I checked was button was a cannon and knew he would fire. My plan blew up in my face on the river though as I leveled myself into thinking that he would never jam into 2 people without the goods, I did not expect MP to come along for the ride.

    I ended up folding the hand face up after taking some time.

    Villain tables 10 8 of. Hearts. Great bluff on his part. I guess I just didn’t have the balls to follow through on my original plan.

    It’s important to construct your line according to your confidence of your opponent profiling, and the confidence in yourself to execute the plan. Planning to check/call all the way down is not wrong, as long as you are aware nearly 90% of the time a scare card will come, and you are willing to call down a good percentage of time even if a scare card falls.

    However, if you are not willing to do the above (be very self aware about this), I would just take an standard aggressive line.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    two thoughts spring to mind: 1) position ideally should be used appropriately, and raising IP often gives up the natural advantage position offers, as it builds the pot, reopens the betting, and may take away better opportunities on the next street, any of which may end up being errors. This amounts to more calls IP, more raises OOP. 2) Any time an opponent makes an error our options tend to increase, regardless.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,716 ✭✭✭✭✭
    LoveFish wrote: »
    Effective stack hero 1200$

    MP limps 5$ (900$ stack)
    In HJ with AsJs raise to 30$
    Button (610$ stack) calls,

    Are you sure you know what effective stack means?
    MP calls.
    LoveFish wrote: »
    I wanted to check call all the way down

    You can also check/raise the turn which avoids getting bluffed out (It's a very rare bird that is going to shove on you as a bluff when you check/raise). But the true effective stack of $610 (assuming button is the primary villain here) does make it a bit tricky sizing-wise (clearly makes you look committed.)
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    edited February 13
    It's gross if he got there, but I think as played you should have stuck with your plan and made the big call. You yourself called him a cannon. Firing's what they do. I've made similar folds on unfavourable run outs and always regretted it later, whether I saw their hand or not. As someone mentioned above, if you go with the check call plan, you need to do it with a close your eyes mindset because half the time the cards won't be kind to you.

    But really, the most questionable thing you did in this hand is fold face up.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    edited February 13
    jeffnc wrote: »
    LoveFish wrote: »
    Effective stack hero 1200$

    MP limps 5$ (900$ stack)
    In HJ with AsJs raise to 30$
    Button (610$ stack) calls,

    Are you sure you know what effective stack means?
    MP calls.
    LoveFish wrote: »
    I wanted to check call all the way down

    You can also check/raise the turn which avoids getting bluffed out (It's a very rare bird that is going to shove on you as a bluff when you check/raise). But the true effective stack of $610 (assuming button is the primary villain here) does make it a bit tricky sizing-wise (clearly makes you look committed.)

    At first I thought a c/r is getting unnecessarily tricky, and I still think it is on the flop, not only because it's shutting out a lot of his weaker barrels, but it's also drastically shrinking your range. But on the turn, the stack sizes make those considerations less important, at least to me. If you're in a hand with a laggy player and only ever getting it in on the turn with KQ or a set against what was more or less a 100bb starting stack, then you're probably leaving money on the table vs a lot of pair + str8 or fd type hands.

    He fired his canon twice, against two opponents mind you, might be time to make him pay for that aggression before he makes you pay for it first.

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