tough spot for me

ryon341ryon341 Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
Playing .25/.50 $50.00 effective stack (we both have about the same)

Hero :8d :9d in LJ position
Villain 1 on the button
villain 2 on HJ
Brand new to the table, so i know nothing at this point about villain.

Hero opens at 3BB
Villain 2 Calls
Villain 1 calls

Flop :5c :7s :9C:
I have top pair, and a draw.

Hero Cbets 1/2 pot
V1 calls

Turn :3S:
Looks like a brick, so i Cbet the turn 1/2 pot
Villain calls

River :10h:

I didn't think my one pair was worth a third street, so i check

Villain bets 2/3 pot
I fold

Did play this correctly? The board was pretty wet, so I maybe I overplayed it a bit. I'd be interested in hearing an evaluation.



Comments

  • ryon341ryon341 Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited February 9
    I'm thinking my flop bet should have been an underbet into the multiway pot. That would have saved me some money. After the second villain folds, the turn bet sizing appear more appropriate.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,289 -
    When I'm new to a table and have no info I tend not to open speculative hands that far off the button, but it's probably fine.
    I think there's an issue on the end. IMO bet-folding and check-calling are better than check-folding.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,779 -
    edited February 9
    You are building a pretty big pot, out of position into two people. This is a highly dynamic board that will favor the IP ranges and position will mater a ton here.

    The run-outs you are going to like are few. I skip the c-bet. If I am really feeling spicy I might find a check-up in some lines.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Spicy is an underused adjective to describe an aggressive play on this forum.

    I don't mind the open raise with a moderately decent SC. However, I think you found a good example of how these hands can be tricky to navigate post flop OOP. Certainly agree with Doug, I am going to check call here and mix in the occasional spiciness.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭✭
    On the flop, you may be too weak to bet (but too strong to fold too). You should dig around your c-bet range - and frequency as pointed out by Doug.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,289 -
    Spicy is an underused adjective to describe an aggressive play on this forum.

    I don't mind the open raise with a moderately decent SC. However, I think you found a good example of how these hands can be tricky to navigate post flop OOP. Certainly agree with Doug, I am going to check call here and mix in the occasional spiciness.

    We're trying to balance out the fact it's overused in Hearthstone forums. (See also: Law of the Conservation of Spiciness.)
    Moderation In Moderation
  • ryon341ryon341 Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    @TheGameKat As I understand it, you suggest firing a third barrel on this board would have been a better move than check / folding? That seems really aggressive. Is that what you meant? What kind of bet sizing would you use on all three streets?

    I know I play a little timid - which is something I'm working on. I just don't want to get too "spicy".
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,289 -
    ryon341 wrote: »
    @TheGameKat As I understand it, you suggest firing a third barrel on this board would have been a better move than check / folding? That seems really aggressive. Is that what you meant? What kind of bet sizing would you use on all three streets?

    I know I play a little timid - which is something I'm working on. I just don't want to get too "spicy".

    I was sort of thinking aloud. This is a genuinely unpleasant spot. Let me elaborate a bit...

    You say you figured this hand isn't worth three streets. Agreed that you can rarely "bet for value" 3 streets with a top pair/weak kicker hand, particularly when the river brings an overcard. But the problem with checking is that it gives your opponent the green light to bet, so to me check-folding just doesn't feel right here.

    I mean what does V have? Let's look at their possible monsters. There's only one available combo of 86s. With a FD on the flop and twin FDs on the turn I would expect them to raise at some point with that. J8s? 3 combos, but do they call pre with it? Sets? Again, for most Vs, the turn call limits their strength. I'd expect a raise to go in. So they've taken a line that denies strength. And when someone calls rather than raises on a messy board, in the games I play at least that tends to put a lot of draws in their range.

    So I think check-call is okay here, but an alternative is a blocking bet which works because bluff-raising the end is rare.

    So summary, I guess I'm not opposed to the check, but the check-fold seems wrong to me.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Aren't we just bluff catching with middle pair weak kicker, then @TheGameKat? As I type that, maybe that isn't the worst thing here on this board, based on your thought process, which I agree with.

    When V calls the turn, he does take some really strong hands out of his range because for most low limit players, the big turn raise is the overwhelming indication that they've got a very strong made hand. When he doesn't do this, I wouldn't worry about sets or a straight.

    I would fire the river here as played. You can still sell V a story that you have a big overpair.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,289 -
    Aren't we just bluff catching with middle pair weak kicker, then @TheGameKat? As I type that, maybe that isn't the worst thing here on this board, based on your thought process, which I agree with.

    When V calls the turn, he does take some really strong hands out of his range because for most low limit players, the big turn raise is the overwhelming indication that they've got a very strong made hand. When he doesn't do this, I wouldn't worry about sets or a straight.

    I would fire the river here as played. You can still sell V a story that you have a big overpair.

    Yup, bluff catcher. In which case I think our decision revolves around whether V auto-bluffs when checked to, or whether they are more stationy and will call a small bet with 66 or something.

    Our range probably includes all the overpairs, but I'm not sure what hands we fold out that have our 9 beat.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Easy button: Check range on flop to which you are at a disadvantage moving forward.

    Ryon we can go through a million of these hands and you'll still be asking for help, because every situation is different. Cut to the chase by asking what a bet is, and you'll erase 90% of your confusion.
  • ryon341ryon341 Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    @persuadeo i don't understand your comment.... You suggest I ask what a bet is? Can you tell me what you mean?

    These reviews have been helpful. Certainly, there are a million different situations, but similarities exist. i'm trying to post questions similar to videos i'm watching for reinforcement and clarity. that's why I have posted a few about check/raising.

    if you have a better suggestion, please let me know.


  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm asking you to consider the nature of a wager in poker, a bet being the first price laid against the pot. I'm not going to give the answer here, but it will clarify 90% of these situations, and separate it from the xc and xr, which are all logical actions which flow from it, rather than situational best guesses.

    (But if you are improving and gaining clarity, don't let me discourage you from your present course.)
  • ryon341ryon341 Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    I honestly do not understand your point here. Are you trying to direct me to some additional training? i don't want to waste your time posting hands with questions. if you have something that will clarify 90% of these situations (highly doubtful), I'd love to hear about it.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • ryon341ryon341 Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    i apologize for the snide comment, I just find it difficult to believe there is a single answer that will solve 90% of my questions about poker. Seriously, though, if you can direct me to training that i am missing, please do so. The comment that says there is an answer, but I'm not going to share it here, isn't helpful.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I didn't say there was an answer to 90% of your questions about poker, I am talking about flop textures. I am observing that again and again and again you struggle with how to proceed versus texture, when to bet, when to raise, etc, which in general has some very clear answers. You even seemed at one point to be frustrated that there was not some overarching guideline to it all, which caught my eye.

    You also said you were an academic with two masters degrees, so I invited you to think about a the nature of a bet, a very academic problem which has an edifying conclusion for poker question. I am not sending you to any other material.

    However, we're not going to get along at this point, so we'll just let it go.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,716 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ryon341 wrote: »
    I'm thinking my flop bet should have been an underbet into the multiway pot. That would have saved me some money.

    If you were looking to save money, wouldn't checking have been better still?

    A bet of, say, $1 on the flop is 99% of the time one of these things: a really ridiculous bluff, a weak hand trying to "find out where it's at", or a draw. All of which invite a big raise, and none of which want to see a big raise.

    So sometimes a hand comes down like this, and someone such as myself maybe will raise the bejeepers out of it with a nut flush draw, and someone like you will muck while saying something like "Well, I found out what I needed to know", which you didn't really.

    It doesn't mean you'll necessarily get raised by a good draw or a worse made hand, but a little bet obviously is laying too good of a price for a draw also.
  • Zero CoolZero Cool Red Chipper Posts: 270 ✭✭✭
    I recommend you read this blog post by Persuadeo where he goes over two hands that were posted to the forum, it might give you some insight into his advice.

    http://persuadeo.nl/construction-discontents-i/

    Heres a link to the two hands.

    https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/9240/bet-fold-aa-on-the-flop-how-bad-is-it

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