All in on the flop

Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
edited February 9 in Tournament Poker Hands
Was this a good shove
Live tourney $125 buy in about 60 players left out of 85
Blinds are 200/400 with 400 bb ante
Folds to the button who has 27k he he opens to 1700
Folds to me in the bb with 10k to start look down at Ks Jc I call
Pot=4k
Flop :6h :Js :2d
I shove
So far my table has been pretty loose not a lot of folds
Villain in this hand was a calling station I think he is calling with 77+ AXs+ A10o+ also think he is calling any jack he may have

Comments

  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,705 -
    edited February 9
    Why did you play this hand pre in this manner? Not that I saying either way that this is a shoving hand, but does your strategy in this spot include a shoving range? Did you consider a 3-bet or fold solution?

    As is, you stuck in 17% of your stack, then denied him the opportunity to c-bet into your lucky flop.

    What was your plan for the 66% of flops you miss?
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,924 -
    Preflop your stack is 6x the open. Just 3b-shove.
    As played, do whatever you think will get the most money in the pot. Against some players the preflop hoodflat followed by a donk overbet shove looks like a programmed play and they may call off pretty wide. With more tentative opponents I think there are better ways of encouraging the money to go in. Just don't fold.
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  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    Why did you play this hand pre in this manner? Not that I saying either way that this is a shoving hand, but does your strategy in this spot include a shoving range? Did you consider a 3-bet or fold solution?

    As is, you stuck in 17% of your stack, then denied him the opportunity to c-bet into your lucky flop.

    What was your plan for the 66% of flops you miss?

    I didn't 3 bet/shove based on a few reasons. I felt 25 blinds was just a little too deep to shove against this opponent as I don't think he ever folds.
    My thinking was it's only 3 blinds to call and see a flop and if I hit something like top pair I can shove and I can still get a call from villain. If I miss I can check/fold.
    And in all honesty never thought of folding pre.
    I'm curious what you would have done pre and why?
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Preflop your stack is 6x the open. Just 3b-shove.

    I usually don't start shoving till I'm only 20 bb or less is this bad strat.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,924 -
    As I think we've discussed before, you seem to have found tournaments that have fallen through a time-warp and I have to say I envy you. If people are min-raising then using a 20bb max stack guideline for 3b-shoving is reasonable, but with larger opens you can 3b-shove deeper. The only exception is against opponents who only make these enormous opens with the very top of their range.

    Look at it like this. The big open puts out more money for you to grab. There's 2.7k out there. With your stack at 10k that is a huge addition if you can grab it.

    Now if you're sure V is never folding, I'm less fond of the 3b-shove, but in that case just fold.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,924 -
    Additional: what range to you give the opener here given they are on the button?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    As I think we've discussed before, you seem to have found tournaments that have fallen through a time-warp and I have to say I envy you. If people are min-raising then using a 20bb max stack guideline for 3b-shoving is reasonable,

    It's a crazy mix of min raising and also a lot of limpers.
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Additional: what range to you give the opener here given they are on the button?

    I struggle with hand reading but he was a calling station however he wasn't super crazy loose. In the moment I put his open range range pre as
    55+, AXs, A10o+, Suited Broadway's as well as KQo and J10o
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,924 -
    Excellent, looks plausible. So now you can do real work. First I'd suggest breaking down that range into how many combos V raise-folds and how many V raise-calls if you shove. Then check your equity against the raise-call range.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    edited February 12
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Excellent, looks plausible. So now you can do real work. First I'd suggest breaking down that range into how many combos V raise-folds and how many V raise-calls if you shove. Then check your equity against the raise-call range.

    So after using equilab I added a few combos to his open raise range from the button to also include all Broadway's not just suited ones so we are looking at a range of
    55+, A2s+, K10s+, Q10s+, J10s+, K10o+, Q10o+, and J10o+
    If i shove and he doesn't fold any of these combos I have roughly 44% equity

    If i I shove I think he fold quite a bit more combos than I thought and his calling range I think looks like
    77+, A7s+, A5s, KJs+, QJs+, J10s+, A10o+, KQo, and J10o
    And my if he calls this range my equity goes down considerable to about 37.75%

    So my question is was my call reasonable or should I have folded

    After the flop with his original open range from the button I'm a pretty big favorite with 75%

    It seems to me I should have either shoved to get him off the weaker hands in his range and pick up almost 3k
    Or fold
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,924 -
    I agree with your conclusion. Here's the thing... Players have cottoned on to the idea that raising wide from the button is good in tournaments because their opponents don't wanna go broke and there are antes and blah blah blah. The point most of them miss is that this tends to create a large raise-fold bucket, so that facing a 3b-shove stack they are often auto-exploitable to a shove.
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  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    @GameKat Well I appreciate you helping me understand that a bit better.
    I'm not that good at reviewing a hand but this helped me look at it a bit differently.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,924 -
    Stomper13 wrote: »
    @GameKat Well I appreciate you helping me understand that a bit better.
    I'm not that good at reviewing a hand but this helped me look at it a bit differently.

    Welcome.
    Moderation In Moderation

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