First Post - AKo UTG+1

LaRanaLaRana Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
Need help with this trouble spot. Its one that I face often and have problems when the flop doesnt hit me.

1/2 NLHE
7 players
Me: $295 / UTG+1 / AKo

UTG opens for $6, I reraise to $18, the action folds around to the button who calls. Blinds folds, UTG folds. Pot $45

I put villain on 88+, all broadways, A8+. Villain has me covered with $325

Flop - 2c, 2d, 6h

I bet $23 villain calls. Pot $91

Turn Jc - I bet $50 villain calls

river Jd - I check villain goes all in. I fold. Villain shows J8 h.

Having premium unpaired Broadway cards always seems to be a big problem for me. I usually three bet these but Ill also three bet 99+ as well as an occasional medium suited connector. The problem comes when the flop does not connect with my unpaired Broadways but I believe I am still ahead. Should I be very aggressive (pot size +) on the flop with big cards when I believe the villain has air? It seems like my table mates know to just call my big three bets and wait to see what flops and either fold or take the pot away.

Thanks for your help
Monty (La Rana)

Comments

  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    Hey @LaRana! Welcome to the forum! There is no easy answer here. Position, image, villain type, range advantage... the list goes on.

    One thing I think you can take from this hand is the range you are giving villain. 3bets from the gen pop in live games are normally very strong. Why do you think V would call with 88 and not 77-22? Why would he call with A8 (A8?)+ but not AQs-A2s? Why all unsuited broadways but no SC's or suited gappers?

    Now put yourself in villains shoes, even with the range you've assigned, and think about what part of that range calls a 3bet and then folds to one bet on this board? Who's range is does that turn card hit?

    Finally, the fact that you're not considering whether either your A or K were a club is very relevant here.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,124 -
    edited February 19
    I'll let our experts comment on the best postflop line, but IMO that isn't a big 3-bet, it's pretty small, and I don't think a larger flop bet is called for.

    The bottom line here is that if you're playing against people who call a 3-bet with J8s, good things are going to happen, but I'd size up a bit pre.

    We also have this book: https://www.splitsuit.com/ace-king-poker-book
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Bernard SilvaBernard Silva Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Reraise to 25 or 30 preflop. If you reraise to 18 you have no fold equity and button/cutoff could still easily call with suited connectors in position against you. Your line postflop is correct as the turn bet puts pressure on 77-tt and they will likely fold (assuming not a calling station).
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    I agree that your 3bet needs to be 25 at a minimum. I'd have raised it to $20 if UTG had just limped. But my input is in situations like this at least you can use the information he gave you to your advantage later. Not only is he a gambler ready and willing to give action, he also believes he's much better than you, hence the flop float. I'd be value betting this guy into oblivion, raising TP on him when he's the aggressor and such, and checking to him OOP and confidently calling when I have a bluff catcher. He's not going to hit trips very often.
  • Mandy_LetteriMandy_Letteri New ZealandRed Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    I agree with the larger 3 bet. It brings the pot to a larger amount on the flop which means your bet size, may it be 2/3 on this action will be larger than $23 and harder to call J high, and less likely to come along to catch the turn card.
  • G14ClassifiedG14Classified Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited June 22
    3! pre is meh... okay with 18 but if the table is calling 3!'s light then size up for value. Also doesn't hurt to go bigger when you're likely to be OOP post flop. Flop is a x IMO. AK plays fine on this flop texture as a x/c and doesn't really benefit from bluffing as you're never folding out better. Would like to know if you have a club though as having one would make me more inclined to bet the flop.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    With no info on Villain, it's impossible to have a proper answer.
    Poker is a game of information. If you don't have any information (on Villain), you've lost the game.
  • G14ClassifiedG14Classified Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited June 22
    Red wrote: »
    With no info on Villain, it's impossible to have a proper answer.
    Poker is a game of information. If you don't have any information (on Villain), you've lost the game.

    We don’t always have information on our opponents. This is when we have to make assumptions based on appearance and player population. Because we don’t have information on the villain in this hand it doesn’t warrant analysis? I feel like we should still be able to analyze this hand based off of fundamental default strategy.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's nothing wrong with the preflop 3 bet size. The opponent has his strongest range in the UTG position and overpolarizing is just adding unnecessary chips to the pot or further tightening continuance.
    Also doesn't hurt to go bigger when you're likely to be OOP post flop.
    Except the most likely result is being IP vs UTG, if seeing continuance at all.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also doesn't hurt to go bigger when you're likely to be OOP post flop.

    How do we determine this, based on the information in the OP?
    I'd have raised it to $20 if UTG had just limped.

    Boy.

    I think there's a bias in this forum toward really large preflop bets, that has developed over time for whatever reason. Some might want to read Jonathan Little's Strategies for Beating Small Stakes Poker Cash Games. He might or might not be theoretically correct and you might or might not agree with him, but it would be food for thought at least.

    Would I ever raise to $20 preflop? Sometimes depending on the specific game, but not generally.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    I think there's a bias in this forum toward really large preflop bets, that has developed over time for whatever reason. Some might want to read Jonathan Little's Strategies for Beating Small Stakes Poker Cash Games. He might or might not be theoretically correct and you might or might not agree with him, but it would be food for thought at least.

    The reason has been unfortunately forgotten from most. Yet it's not wrong as some pro - like Matt Berkey - will advocate to go large(r) in such situation.

    But why going larger or smaller? That's what any player should ask themselves before betting. This all depends on your strategy - balanced or exploitative.

    ( @LaRana / @jeffnc : don't understand me wrong neither: I still strongly encourage LaRana to read Little's book. One of the best I read as learning player.)
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    The reason has been unfortunately forgotten from most. Yet it's not wrong as some pro - like Matt Berkey - will advocate to go large(r) in such situation.

    When you say "such situation", are you talking about 3 betting in position generally?

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    The reason has been unfortunately forgotten from most. Yet it's not wrong as some pro - like Matt Berkey - will advocate to go large(r) in such situation.

    When you say "such situation", are you talking about 3 betting in position generally?

    Preflop bet sizing in general
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The advice was probably more situational than that, but I'm not sure.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes and no
    It's more: since Villain will call too wide for too big of a price, then better charge them. It also make postflop easier - more mathematical - as SPR is lower and stack leverage (which they usually don't see) comes on early streets.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Obviously, but what evidence is there that villain or anyone in this hand or this game will call too wide for too big of a price?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    No Villain were really described. Yet OP plays 1/2, meaning they are not that great players - and two of the most common mistakes are to fold too often or... to call too wide/for too much.

    Now even after a 3bet Hero put Villain on 88+, all broadways, A8+ which is a wide range ! I think we can already stated V called too wide and Hero could/should* have sized his 3bet bigger.

    After the hand, we can see that Villain had J8s, meaning OP was pretty far from the pain threshold. Again, this is another hint that the bets could have been sized bigger.

    *the fact that most US open-bet at 1/2$ I've witnessed were around 12-15$ might also decrease the FE - not forgetting that all of them except SB/BB will play IP. I'd then go for a higher price - around 20-25$ - to increase my FE; here, I think the $ impact is more important than the 3X impact.
  • Mandy_LetteriMandy_Letteri New ZealandRed Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭

    Boy.

    I think there's a bias in this forum toward really large preflop bets, that has developed over time for whatever reason. Some might want to read Jonathan Little's Strategies for Beating Small Stakes Poker Cash Games. He might or might not be theoretically correct and you might or might not agree with him, but it would be food for thought at least.

    Would I ever raise to $20 preflop? Sometimes depending on the specific game, but not generally.

    [/quote]

    $18 dollars is on average always geting 3+ players calling in my poker room...i find if i have something like AKo i have to go a size im getting my HU postflop...especially walking into a 1/3 game where stack sizes are large that your walking into and people are throwing $ around
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The massive open, "pain threshold" stuff was based on the player pool both overfolding and undercontinuing, meaning inefficient chips in were often rewarded instead of punished. Isolation was purchased at a cost that the pool was incentivized to aggress against but instead rolled over for. It's not the only way, and eventually, even deliberate mistakes are countered.

    Further just look at this hand. If you think the OP played it wrongly, observe how results oriented this is. Villain made massive mistakes until he made his hand, then didn't get paid. Who wins in this exchange long term?
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 955 ✭✭✭✭
    As far as the bet sizing, do you really want j8s to fold to your 3 bet...sure if he would call j8s to a $25 bet go for it...but don't make a $25 bet to get J8s to fold....
    Do you really want j8s with a backdoor flush to fold fold to your cbet on the flop....

    And gee was it not nice of him to jamb his big hand instead of betting small and maybe putting you in a tough spot...

    Honestly I think you played this hand fine (given reads I made because of what went down)

    Make some notes...calls 3 bets (reasonable sized ) supper loose, floats with little equity on flop....bets really big when he has a big hand....

    Adjustments...3 bet him more often maybe move to left so that becomes eaiser....double barrel on low boards often...tentatively fold when he makes big bets...

    When you have a made hand may want to bet flop...and check turn as he probably floats to take hands away on the turn....watch him play to confirm reads...


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