Live $1/$3 frustrating pre-flop fold

JGfor3JGfor3 Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
edited February 25 in Live Poker Hands
Hi all – new to RCP and just started seriously studying poker over the past couple of months and wanted opinions on this situation and hand that I played at a $1/$3 live cash game the other day that hurt and wanted to hear some feedback. Open to any comments on the situation.

Background: First time playing live cash in this room. Definitely the youngest person at the table and received little respect to my game until I won a few showdowns and took down a few pots. Had been playing for about 3 hours to this point, playing very tight for the first half-hour or so to get a feel for players ranges and tendencies. Next hour or so, started getting some good hole cards and began playing a little looser and took down a handful of pots, folding a few missed post-flops, and winning all three of my showdowns. Result: Up about 50BB and shy of double my buy-in.

Hand: I was moved tables along with a few others from the first table, had a read on 1/2 of players at new table. This was my 4th hand at new full table of 9 players. UTG (good player from 1st table; big stack; ~300BB+) limps $3. UTG+1 (new player; ~$150 stack) raises $25. MP2 (new player; short stack) shoves all-in at ~$90. I’m CO w/ KK w/ ~$350 stack, struggling with my decision to raise/fold/call here preflop. Big stack had tendency to slow play a few big hands at last table while in early position, little/no knowledge to two others besides stack size and position. Much to my dismay, I fold with the assumption that all three will call with some A’s out there.
Outcome: Big stack calls, UTG+1 calls. Flop: Jd, 9d, 6c. Turn: 3s. River: Qc.
Big stack shows AQo. UTG+1 shows A10s. MP2 shows KJs.

I would’ve taken the pot with no further bets until river w/ small bet that I would’ve called.

In fear of A’s and no knowledge to range of raiser and 3bet shove players, and big stack’s prior tendencies out of position, I figured too many A’s or straight/flush opportunities in play to compete for the hand. Feared calling $90 pre-flop to see an A on the board or shoving myself to find another with pocket AA. Were the hands and outcome of flop, turn, river lucky for my scenario or did I miss out on some serious cash?
I couldn’t stop thinking about the hand for a while. Thanks for the tips.

-JG

Comments

  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    Shove PF with a hidden smile.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    When it gets to you, ranges are still so wide enough that you can't just assume someone has AA. Yes, someone may have it. And that will suck, but that's just poker.

    If you're folding here, it's likely that you're protecting your win. That's your decision and it's fine, but it does mean it's time to call it a night.

    At least now you can remove the "good player" label from UTG.
  • JGfor3JGfor3 Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    Appreciate the thoughts. I think I was definitely protecting my winnings unconsciously because my gut told me to shove and I second guessed myself. Good learning hand I suppose.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, if you're not willing to get 150bb in pre with kings without action that would indicate someone cannot have anything but aces, then you're playing too big.

    Cash poker is one giant, never-ending session, so there's no need to protect any wins. All you're ever dealing with is peaks and troughs. If you fold there, there's no reason why you don't get aces next hand and lose it all in an all in pre situation. It's at that point you'll really wish you'd called that KK hand.

    FYI, as rare as it is to get kings, on such rare occasions, it's less than 5% that someone else has aces.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    Also, how UTG doesn't at least min raise here is beyond me.
  • JGfor3JGfor3 Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    Not sure either. Good thoughts though, definitely sat there wishing I had it back for awhile.
  • CoilerinoCoilerino Red Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    Hopefully here you can see how loose people can jam PF. I've noticed a lot of 1/2 players will jam ATo+, ATs+, 22+ so with KK here you have a good chance of the players with an ace blocking each other or being ahead of another pair. Someone is going to be calling there with 76s sometimes and you're going to get sucked out. Just gotta grit your teeth if you lose because you're getting it in here pretty good.
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 109 ✭✭
    I’m always shoving PF here. Unless I get 4 or 5B from a nit that I have a super specific read on, I can’t find a fold here.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, I folded kings pre once, 1000BB deep. I was UTG and made it $20 to go, and UTG +1, a friend who had me covered and I knew was playing way above his comfort and financial level 3bet me to $75. There was an overcall and when it came back to me, I squeezed to $235 and he 5bet me to $700. Actually one of the easiest folds I've ever made.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭
    On today's unsolved mysteries of RCP forum: "folding KK for less than 200 BB's".


    To some quick math, plug some "reasonable" ranges into equilab. Would people stack off with QQ here? 100%. AK? Sure. AQo? I wouldn't think so, but here we are. JJ? Why not. AA? Of course. Now, use that feature where you can adjust %'s of times people do it. Play around with it. You will see....that EVEN if people only stack off with AA-QQ + AK (reasonable).your a 57.19% favorite. That means your gonna lose like half the time. So it stings when you are wrong, and it feels great when you are right. It honestly took me playing online and really looking at math on bluffing AND calling when I was like....MANNNN I'm like....never good here, even getting 5:1 on my money. Well you know what? Of course I'm gonna get shown that I'm beat a ton. But that's the part about laying of odds. But if I right like 1:4 times....then I really start to see profit. And the graph supports that.

    That's why sometimes bluffs where I was like "mannnn...there's no way this gets through". But....guess what? If you only need it to work 33% of the time....and it seems to work like 50%... But live poker, there are so many fewer hands, and one hand can sting because the hands are worth so much more, it really tends to leave deeper cuts than dinky .05/.1 online, but the fact remains the math is the same, it just takes a lot longer to get to the "long term" in live in terms of hand volume. I think that's why some people would advocate for live, really hammering that stronger pre-flop range, because it just makes you avoid marginal spots, which over a long term in online poker can turn a profile via volume, but live, it just maybe be an "unnecessary" risk, especially for new and upcoming players.
  • JGfor3JGfor3 Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    @jfarrow13 really agree with your thoughts here. My gut instinct and quick analysis was that I would be the slight favorite going into the hand, but at this time in my poker playing and in this run I was stuck with the doom of facing A's and them hitting the board and that it was more than I was willing to take on in this position on a 3b shove. Hindsight, I wish I had the guts to do it after seeing the result, but I know if I was faced with a similar position I may even raise for less than a shove if I'm guarding my stack unconsciously... lots to learn.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭
    @JGfor3 don't sweat it man, there's something to be said for a crushing feeling of that poker can deliver on you when you spend 3-4 hours taking $200--->$500, only to lose it all in one hand. That drive home is the worst. And it's a lot easier said that done to separate yourself from the money, and from winning and losing that even the most seasoned player will attest that it still stings when they lose big probably.


    But there are some strategies that can help you avoid this. It's cheesy, but until your ready, if you buy in for say $200 and double up at any point, cash out and rebuy at a different table. It's a gimmick that will prevent you from losing your entire stack in a single hand (it also prevents you from doubling that $400--->$800) but it sound like at this point in your game your more concerned with losing big than winning big.


    I already mentioned another one, but really hammer down a solid, and pretty tight pre-flop range. This helps you avoid marginal spots. This does not mean start being a clown who gets scared that everyone is going to outdraw them and prices people with marginal hands out of pots, but....just select a strong range and value them to death.


    Finally, once you start to become more comfortable and have a decent bankroll, you will be fine with bringing 1-3 buy-ins, and losing them. And once you let go of your fear, you'll be a much stronger player. Just look at this hand, you folded KK. I remember I 4-bet shoved at $1-2 with QQ one time and someone open folded KK to me for 100 BB's, saying I can only be 4-bet shoving here with AA.
    Most people are naturally pretty fearful, and are afraid to put all their chips in the middle without a really strong hand. You can leverage a lot of money off this fear.

    Also, if every time you have AA and someone has KK and all the money goes in, and vice versa, it's net even (stacks aside, and rake), but as soon as you start folding KK and people will shove wider than you anticipate, you start losing money with the 2nd best hand in the game.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,027 -
    Technical point: If you decide to rathole having doubled $200-$400, anywhere reputable will either require you wait an hour or that you move to a different room.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 458 ✭✭✭
    How come everyone is advocating shoving rather than calling?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    How come everyone is advocating shoving rather than calling?

    I'd call only if I think UTG or UTG+1 may reshove on top to iso. But many low stakes player aren't able to pull the trigger and re-raise when a short stack is shoving (and other have called behind).
    Only calling to see a low SPR flop... does it really give us a plus-value to be with an underrep hand ? Not that sure, because not sure that the meh hands of V who could make a loose all-in call preflop would still call if the board looks scary for their hands.
    So in this situation, I think it's way easier to play for stack in a good situation by by pushing than pulling.

    Also personally I'd regularly shove with like 88+/AJs+/AQo+ in this situation. So I need to shove regulatly KK as well to protect my range. (And I don't see having much of calling range here).
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 458 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    How come everyone is advocating shoving rather than calling?

    I'd call only if I think UTG or UTG+1 may reshove on top to iso. But many low stakes player aren't able to pull the trigger and re-raise when a short stack is shoving (and other have called behind).
    Only calling to see a low SPR flop... does it really give us a plus-value to be with an underrep hand ? Not that sure, because not sure that the meh hands of V who could make a loose all-in call preflop would still call if the board looks scary for their hands.
    So in this situation, I think it's way easier to play for stack in a good situation by by pushing than pulling.

    Also personally I'd regularly shove with like 88+/AJs+/AQo+ in this situation. So I need to shove regulatly KK as well to protect my range. (And I don't see having much of calling range here).

    Yeah alright that's fair

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