(5nlz) A5s from the BB, 3.5x 3ball CO Fish, get min 4b

Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 820 ✭✭✭
edited February 28 in Online Poker Hands
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software

NL Holdem $0.05(BB)
HJ ($6.39) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
CO ($2.89) [VPIP: 100% | PFR: 100% | AGG: 100% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
BTN ($4.98) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
SB ($3.09) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
HERO ($5.56) [VPIP: 23.8% | PFR: 14.3% | AGG: 16.7% | 3-Bet: 11.1% | Hands: 21]
UTG ($5.29) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]

Dealt to Hero: A:heart: 5:heart:

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Raises To $0.10, BTN Folds, SB Folds, HERO Raises To $0.35, CO Raises To $0.60, HERO Calls $0.25

Hero SPR on Flop: [1.88 effective]
Flop ($1.22): 9:heart: A:club: T:heart:
HERO Checks, CO Bets $0.61 (Rem. Stack: 1.68), HERO Raises To $4.96 (allin), CO Folds

HERO wins: $2.32

Rabbit card: :9c

DH never had zoom hands caught like this last time I used it. Just trying things out.

Comments

  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 458 ✭✭✭
    I like your 3-bet pre, as well as the sizing.

    What happened on the flop?
    Are you shoving for value? Are you bluffing?

    Personally I'd check-call here.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 820 ✭✭✭
    Why? He only has $1.68 remaining. I'm probably going to get snap shoved on when the turn comes down. It's not like I know I'm ahead here.

    Thoughts?
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 458 ✭✭✭
    But what is the actual function of your check-raise? Is it a bluff or for value?
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 820 ✭✭✭
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 458 ✭✭✭
    edited February 28
    Have you worked out if you have >50% equity against a calling range? Seems too optimistic to me.

    Also any thoughts spent on the preflop call after the 4-bet?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    Joseph F wrote: »
    Value.

    Then what worst hands do you target (hope they call) ?
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 820 ✭✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Have you worked out if you have >50% equity against a calling range? Seems too optimistic to me.

    Also any thoughts spent on the preflop call after the 4-bet?

    I have to work out my hand vs his range. My hand v his hand gives me 47% when the money went in.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 458 ✭✭✭
    Yes you have to lol. Not gonna do it for you
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 820 ✭✭✭
    edited February 28
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Yes you have to lol. Not gonna do it for you

    I wasn't asking :P I've become addicted to Power Equilab and GTO+. Remember: I was just trying out posting zoom HH's. This hand wasn't one I was going to overly analyze but I think there's something to be learned from almost every hand and I'm glad to get some discussion going. Having a few guys who are putting in volume to post back and forth with is ideal for me right now.
  • babalouisebabalouise Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    I have to agree with LeChiffre. I would check-call this on the flop. I bet if you put it into a solver, the solution would be that most +EV comes from check-calling. The reason I would check call, even though you only have $1,68 and pot is $1,22 on flop (so you're going to get it all-in) is that AT is not a value hand. It's a middling hand. It beats bluffs, but not A-better-kickers, not to mention sets of T's, etc. It only becomes a value hand if you happen to hit your flush (or perhaps spike a 5 for 2 pair). The problem with going all-in now is that you will definitely get called when you are beat, and then you are an underdog, despite your flush draw. But you may get him to fold his worse hands (underpairs to A, for example), which he may bet on the turn if you just call now.

    So, regardless, you are getting it all in. But the question is: Are you going to get it all in when your most likely calls are only hands where you are the underdog? Or do you want to get it all in when Villain's hand range is a bit wider, so that you might actually even win with the AT, even if the flush doesn't come?
  • babalouisebabalouise Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    Sorry, I meant that your might win with your A5 at the end, not AT. (Like if you just call now and Villain fires again on turn with an underpair to the A, which he likely would have just folded if you'd have gone all-in on the flop.)
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 820 ✭✭✭
    edited March 1
    Nice explanations. It's not a value hand when I'm drawing to be ahead. Check, call, but the thing is that the 9 comes down, pairs the board, and now what? I'm losing my equity when I can't call his shove.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 820 ✭✭✭
    edited March 1
    https://ibb.co/jGxdzgn

    Just popping in some quick min 4b ranges for villain, my hand vs his range is at ~67% on the flop, was at 47% in reality. After the 9c on the turn, I drop to roughly 61% vs v's range.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 820 ✭✭✭
    edited March 1
    Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

    NL Holdem $0.05(BB)
    HERO ($5) [VPIP: 28.3% | PFR: 21.2% | AGG: 33.3% | 3-Bet: 15.6% | Hands: 219]
    UTG ($2.03) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 2]
    HJ ($4.48) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 2]
    CO ($5.15) [VPIP: 100% | PFR: 100% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 2]
    BTN ($14.95) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 2]
    SB ($1.48) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 2]

    Dealt to Hero: K:heart: A:heart:

    UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Raises To $0.20, BTN Folds, SB Folds, HERO Raises To $0.52, CO Calls $0.32

    Hero SPR on Flop: [4.23 effective]
    Flop ($1.06): 3:club: K:spade: 4:club:
    HERO Bets $0.63 (Rem. Stack: 3.85), CO Calls $0.63 (Rem. Stack: 4.00)

    Turn ($2.32): 3:club: K:spade: 4:club: 2:spade:
    HERO Bets $3.85 (allin), CO Calls $3.85 (Rem. Stack: 0.15)

    River ($10.02): 3:club: K:spade: 4:club: 2:spade: A:diamond:
    CO shows: K:diamond: T:club:

    HERO wins: $9.52

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    Joseph F wrote: »
    Couldn't figure out how to delete a post lol.

    because you can't. As much as you can't edit your post after some time.
    See with @TheGameKat for more info
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,016 -
    Oh we have a post deletion fairy for that.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • babalouisebabalouise Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    Response to 2 of your comments.
    (1) You are never getting pushed off your hand losing equity on the turn. By the turn, there is $2.44 in the pot, and you only have $1.07 left. If Villain goes all-in, there's 3.51 in pot. You are calling your last $1.07. Also, remember that Villain 4-bet you pre-flop. It is unlikely that he has a 9. He *might* have A9s, but I think most player would have just called your 3-bet with that. In short, you don't have to worry much about protection-betting. He might have an underpair that he might spike a set on, or he might have a 10, or a 9 (unlikely) that he might spike a set on. But these are rarities.

    (2) Your equity may be at 67% on the flop (I don't know, I'm trusting you have a right range input in your flopzilla and you are more-or-less right). But your equity is 67% vs all of Villain's hands - it's not 67% vs the hands that he is *calling* with. To give yourself closer to that 67% equity, you need to check-call now (IMO) so that, when you get it all in, you are getting it all in against a wider portion of Villain's range.

    All of this said, I was curious, so I ran this scenario through PioSOLVER. If I let Villain's range include lots of 10's and 9's (KTs, Q9s, QTs, etc), then it *does* have you shoving on the flop (as you originally suggested). Maybe that's because shoving all in on the flop is more of a protection-bet, so that Villain doesn't spike 2-pair or a set. But if I keep most of the 10's and 9's out of Villain's range (perhaps allowing ATs), then it advocates check-calling 70% of the time and shoving 30% of the time. Interesting. ... But that's just GTO. We all know that we try to play exploitatively.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 820 ✭✭✭
    edited March 10
    Simply "playing exploitatively" doesn't ever tell the whole story. Neither does playing GTO. In many ways, villain exploits himself before our very eyes when we're playing proper GTO. Then, we identify where we can pry even further and start exploiting him ourselves. There has to be a foundation somewhere, though and GTO solvers alongside it's theory have been great for me on and off the tables. Balance and equilibrium is good for life outside of poker, too.

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