Bad river bluff spot?

JayCageJayCage I'munna b where I'm at Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
2-5nl Live
Hero $850
Villain $900ish

No real reads on villian. First time playing with him. I would say he is average abc player.

2 limps to villain in co who raises to 20. Button folds.
I 3b to 80 from sb. Folds back to villain who calls

Pot is 175 (-6 rake)

Flop is :3s :4s :7h
I bet 80. Villain calls
Pot is 335

Turn is :Ad
I check. Villain checks.
Pot is 335

River is :7d
I bet 250. Villian thinks for 20, 30 seconds and calls.

I can reveal the hands later. But first does my line make any sense? Should I have just given up? I have no show down value.

See what you think. I'll elaborate further if people think its worthy of discussion.

Comments

  • JayCageJayCage I'munna b where I'm at Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Thanks Phil,
    That's the problem I guess. I was not thinking about what I'm repping. When he check backs the turn I thought he hated the Ace turn card. I'm thinking he has 99, TT. JJ that he's pot controlling on the flop. He may even just call turn with QQ fearing running into Aces or Kings. There is not a lot of 3 beting in this game and I'm thinking he"s putting me on a tight 3bet range. QQ+, AK.

    As far as the flop goes I think that does not improve either of us. I am repping QQ+ AK with my 3bet and whats he raise/calling with? 99, TT, JJ, QQ, AK AQs I think he folds 33,44 pre. Maybe he calls with 77 but 7 hits the river. So what I'm saying, I guess, I though it was a good flop for me.
  • JayCageJayCage I'munna b where I'm at Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Thanks! I am 3betting much wider here but I don’t think my opponent thinks that.
    Once I get to the river as played my thought process was villain did not flop a set because he would bet the turn when checked to. I think if he floated with AKs he would also bet the turn. So I am narrowing his range down to 88-JJ.

    My hand :Jh :Th
    His hand :Ah :Kh

  • cxy123cxy123 Red Chipper Posts: 50 ✭✭
    fwiw - if I were you opponent I would call with any A and I am fairly nitty. AK the only thought is raising for value and possibly folding a chop. I think a lot of better players than me would find a call with worse than an A. And I definitely am calling flop with AK as well. On the river, I know what I would like to think I would do but in game I am probably folding JJ and lower so it may have worked on me.

    then again donkey that I am, I would probably bet the turn letting you fold everything so yeah you wouldnt get here against me ;)

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    Personally, I'm no fan of preflop 3bet JTs in this situation. It's a hand which can flop great equity and does well in MW. Despite being OOP, I'd rather call and hope to get BB and limpers with.

    I could see a 3bet IF CO has a stealing range (aka if CO is position aware and has a stealing range and will defend rather wide). Then you still would have decent equity against a significant chunk of V range, and you still can +EV bluff because V would have enough combo to fold.

    If CO isn't much position aware, we still could see JTs as 3bet bluff, using this combo for board coverage; still, I prefer to call with JTs (see above) and raise with J9s. But in this situation it would be a once-and-done bluff, and would continue fire flop only if we hit nicely (good made hand or great draw) because a none-position aware V will have a rather tight range - aka stronger than JTs - and not many combo to fold.
  • JayCageJayCage I'munna b where I'm at Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited March 5
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    Why do you give him credit for AK and not give him any combos of AJ and AQ?

    I did say he may have continued with AQs.
    JayCage wrote: »
    As far as the flop goes I think that does not improve either of us. I am repping QQ+ AK with my 3bet and whats he raise/calling with? 99, TT, JJ, QQ, AK AQs I think he folds 33,44 pre. Maybe he calls with 77 but 7 hits the river. So what I'm saying, I guess, I though it was a good flop for me.

    I think , right or wrong a lot of "typical" ie bad players open wide from the co but defend very tight to a three bet. and a lot will not 4bet AK only AA & KK.

    So he definitely played outplayed me.
    I'm not sure that was his intention. I think he was genuinely being careful.
    He got me to put in 250 on the river because he checked back the turn with AK. I am confused by his line (not at the time) because mainly because I thought he would bet the turn with all the hands he would not fold on the river. So when he didn't bet turn, I thought I could take him off his hand. This was pretty much my only thoughts on the river.
    Is this being too blind?

    And as always maybe its just not a good preflop decision to 3bet a co raise with :Jh :Th . Call and see a flop I think could be better.
    Red wrote: »
    Personally, I'm no fan of preflop 3bet JTs in this situation. It's a hand which can flop great equity and does well in MW. Despite being OOP, I'd rather call and hope to get BB and limpers with

    If I do that I save 390... But I don't try to open up my game at all and I become the TAG/Reg. I dunno. I'm sure there are better spots. But when you play live the great spots don't seem to come around a lot.

    Side question would be would :Jh :Th from the sb be a good squeeze? say middle opens 20 and 2 callers. Make it 125 from sb? Or you just calling and hoping to flop well?

    Thanks for the discussion guys!
  • Brews_and_CardsBrews_and_Cards Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
    edited March 5
    I think JTs works better from the blinds as a 3bet squeeze.

    From the BU, this is a hand that we can happily flat with and likely see a flop. We can flop a ton of equity in a MW pot.

    Trying to squeeze against an unknown with players left to act behind us can lead to trouble. Typically, you try to squeeze when you know the player who opened is playing wider than he should be, and those left to act are tight/passive. Here, we have an unknown V who could be on the tighter side of the spectrum, so our attempted squeeze is well behind when he flats our 3b.

    The flop doesn't do us any favors. We know we're likely behind since V called. And now we need runner-runner to make the best hand, as a J may give us top pair, but with a meh kicker, and potentially facing QQ. So when we decide to bluff cbet this flop, we're trying to sell the idea that we have an overpair or a nut flush draw. An A on the turn should hit our nut flush range that we're repping hard. And yet we check. River is essentially a brick and we bet again. Looks like JJ-KK, or a missed spade draw to me. Any A is going to call, in my opinion.

    I'm a little surprised that he didn't bet the turn. It seems risky to let a spade draw see a free card.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    JayCage wrote: »
    I'm not sure that was his intention. I think he was genuinely being careful.
    He got me to put in 250 on the river because he checked back the turn with AK. I am confused by his line (not at the time) because mainly because I thought he would bet the turn with all the hands he would not fold on the river. So when he didn't bet turn, I thought I could take him off his hand. This was pretty much my only thoughts on the river.
    Is this being too blind?

    It's not that strange to check back TP on turn for Villain: only :SPADE: (if you've FD) or J, Q, and blocked K (if Heros has JJ-KK) are dangerous cards for AK.
    If he thinks you play (rather) straightforwardly, then betting TP here will find way too many folds and little value.
    So holding a hand which is not really vulnerable and against someone who apparently doesn't have anything (much), then it's fine to check and value river.

    He should not have AK, and he should not turn check his best AX, but still the main problem is not Villain being too passive, problem is your terrible line on every streets.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    JayCage wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    Personally, I'm no fan of preflop 3bet JTs in this situation. It's a hand which can flop great equity and does well in MW. Despite being OOP, I'd rather call and hope to get BB and limpers with

    If I do that I save 390... But I don't try to open up my game at all and I become the TAG/Reg. I dunno. I'm sure there are better spots. But when you play live the great spots don't seem to come around a lot.

    You don't "save 390$". Don't be result oriented. If I want to call with JTs, it's because I've a strategy to play this combo postflop - mostly around how well you flop with such combo.

    there are a lot of great spots. Look around, observe Villains, study poker. And stab.
    JayCage wrote: »
    Side question would be would :Jh :Th from the sb be a good squeeze? say middle opens 20 and 2 callers. Make it 125 from sb? Or you just calling and hoping to flop well?

    There is no "good squeeze" in absolute. Sometimes it's better to raise a hand; sometimes it's better to call; sometimes it's better to fold.
    We are not playing in a vacuum, we are playing in a specific place (position and relative position, eff. stack / expected SPR, table dynamic) against specific Villain (tendencies, mistake propensity).

    Build a strategy out of table, then adapt it on the table to always play with a plan which fits your needs and goals.
  • JayCageJayCage I'munna b where I'm at Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    He should not have AK, and he should not turn check his best AX, but still the main problem is not Villain being too passive, problem is your terrible line on every streets.

    Roasted! Lol, but well deserved!
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    JayCage wrote: »
    I was not thinking about what I'm repping.

    Bluffing without thinking about what you're repping is like playing blackjack without looking at your cards, only the dealer's card.

  • JayCageJayCage I'munna b where I'm at Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Thanks Phil, That does help a lot.
    Thanks everyone for taking the time to comment!

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