4bet with JJ?

MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 155 ✭✭
A bit of a weird spot last night. Three of us 'poker players' were sitting at a $1/3 table beating up on some recs and a fish. We all had at least 200+BB and were seated directly next to each other.

The table dynamic was friendly, and the three of us had been chatting shop (which I like to do to both be amicable but also to get a gauge of what level they're on). My judgement is both of them are studying players.

The hand goes limp limp limp and one of them makes it $15 on the button. I'd seen him make it $20 and $25 in a similar situation, so my read is he's not married to his hand.

The other guy, to my direct right, makes it $50 from the SB.

I'm sitting in the BB with JJ.

My assumptions are:

• He knows the $15 button open is likely weak.
• He is very capable of restealing from the SB with less than AK and QQ+.
• He is not the type to ever 5bet without AA or KK, possibly QQ.

My concerns are:

• A 4bet would be turning a strong hand into a semi-bluff
• If I'm 5bet jammed on I may as well have had 72o
• A cold call would be turning my hand face up and leave me wide open for exploitation on the flop or later streets.
• A cold call would also encourage a mostly loose passive crowd, not to mention the original raiser, to enter the pot

I don't want to fold. What should be my 4betting frequency here?

Comments

  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 357 ✭✭✭
    So if he is capable of 3 betting more than just QQ+, AK, what does that entail? Do we think he would 3 bet 99, TT or JJ ever? (Realize we block most of JJ, but still). Is A2-A5s in his range? KQ? AJ? QJs? JTs?

    How wide do you perceive V is willing to 3 bet? What is V like postflop?

    Do you read anything into his sizing with you behind, OOP and barely eclipsing 3x the open raise despite the limpers? This may be going too far but what are the limper stack size? Any chance they're really short and V could be hoping they jam so he can rejam? Fringe situation, but ever since @moishetreats (miss him...) brought that up on one of my posts I always think of it haha
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 155 ✭✭
    edited March 6
    Really good point about the limpers, admittedly, I didn't think of that. Have to pay more attention to it in the future. No, no one on life support looking to get it in.

    Short answer, yes, I include in his range here all pairs 99+, the standard suited aces, and a good lot of broadway hands a fair percentage of the time. I don't know if he's got suited connectors in there, but it wouldn't surprise me, especially facing this weak open.

    A $50-$60 3bet in the SB facing a $15 open is standard for these tables. They usually don't start getting up over $70 until it's a squeeze situation.

  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited March 6
    If the SB is 3betting a standard range, JJ is a value 4bet here, and can call a 5bet easily. I think that GTO-wise, the BB can have a cold calling range here, so maybe theoretically flatting TT and JJ like 50% of the time, and AA 25% or something like that. But I would be 4betting this all day. Esp. if he's such a nit that he's not 5betting with AK, you can 4bet this easily.

    Of course, at low stakes, the SB can be 3betting extremely tight here, which is slightly concerning. But he'd have to be an absolute nit (QQ+ AK) for me to consider not 4betting.

  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 267 ✭✭✭
    edited March 6
    I think I might just flat here. A 4-bet doesn't really accomplish much except fold out a bunch of his hands that don't have much equity but can improve to make pairs lower than your JJ.

    Also, I would often read the button's smaller raise sizing as strength because he's using a sizing he wants to make sure to get called by. This, of course, is player dependent, and you may very well be right. Either way, I hope you paid attention to what his hand was if you got to see it.

    Also, +1 to the big ups to @moishetreats.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 155 ✭✭
    edited March 6
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    If the SB is 3betting a standard range, JJ is a value 4bet here, and can call a 5bet easily. I think that GTO-wise, the BB can have a cold calling range here, so maybe theoretically flatting TT and JJ like 50% of the time, and AA 25% or something like that. But I would be 4betting this all day.

    Of course, at low stakes, the SB can be 3betting extremely tight here, which is slightly concerning. But he'd have to be an absolute nit (QQ+ AK) for me to consider not 4betting.

    Thanks Phill, that's a relief. I'm only just starting to develop this part of my game into a more sophisticated strategy. He did min 5bet by the way, and I did call.

    He had QQ and flopped a set, but the board ran out three clubs, I had no clubs and he jammed his last $350, so I was able to get away from it it.

    He said he had me on exactly KK when I called, and assumed I'd jam AA.

    That's interesting, I don't think there's a single thing I fold or jam with vs his min 5bet. The pot at that point was bigger than what's left in his stack.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 155 ✭✭
    edited March 6
    Roblivion wrote: »
    I think I might just flat here. A 4-bet doesn't really accomplish much except fold out a bunch of his hands that don't have much equity but can improve to make pairs lower than your JJ.

    Also, I would often read the button's smaller raise sizing as strength because he's using a sizing he wants to make sure to get called by. This, of course, is player dependent, and you may very well be right. Either way, I hope you paid attention to what his hand was if you got to see it.

    Also, +1 to the big ups to @moishetreats.

    The original raiser had AJo and wasn't even considering calling the original 3bet. Funnily enough, there's probably something to your read because I saw him make it $21 with A7s in a very similar situation just a couple of orbits earlier.

    As a default though, I read people as weak who make smaller than standard opens and I'm usually right.

    Also, there are plenty of people in that room who I wouldn't even consider flatting unless we were both deep, but given what I'd noted on him and based on our conversations, I knew he was more than capable of being light in this spot.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,790 -
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    If the SB is 3betting a standard range, JJ is a value 4bet here, and can call a 5bet easily. I think that GTO-wise, the BB can have a cold calling range here, so maybe theoretically flatting TT and JJ like 50% of the time, and AA 25% or something like that. But I would be 4betting this all day. Esp. if he's such a nit that he's not 5betting with AK, you can 4bet this easily.

    Of course, at low stakes, the SB can be 3betting extremely tight here, which is slightly concerning. But he'd have to be an absolute nit (QQ+ AK) for me to consider not 4betting.

    To me this is the critical issue. A standard 3-betting range at $1/3 is frequently non-standard.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    If the SB is 3betting a standard range, JJ is a value 4bet here, and can call a 5bet easily. I think that GTO-wise, the BB can have a cold calling range here, so maybe theoretically flatting TT and JJ like 50% of the time, and AA 25% or something like that. But I would be 4betting this all day. Esp. if he's such a nit that he's not 5betting with AK, you can 4bet this easily.

    Of course, at low stakes, the SB can be 3betting extremely tight here, which is slightly concerning. But he'd have to be an absolute nit (QQ+ AK) for me to consider not 4betting.

    To me this is the critical issue. A standard 3-betting range at $1/3 is frequently non-standard.

    Of course. OP here says that he thinks they are studious players, and given only that info, I would try to play unexploitable poker here and 4bet. If someone wants to say "the general $1/$3 pool 3bets too tight here, so I'm going to make an exploit here", that's fine, but they should just realize that they better be right about that player's range or they are opening themselves up for exploit.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 155 ✭✭
    edited March 6
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    If the SB is 3betting a standard range, JJ is a value 4bet here, and can call a 5bet easily. I think that GTO-wise, the BB can have a cold calling range here, so maybe theoretically flatting TT and JJ like 50% of the time, and AA 25% or something like that. But I would be 4betting this all day. Esp. if he's such a nit that he's not 5betting with AK, you can 4bet this easily.

    Of course, at low stakes, the SB can be 3betting extremely tight here, which is slightly concerning. But he'd have to be an absolute nit (QQ+ AK) for me to consider not 4betting.

    To me this is the critical issue. A standard 3-betting range at $1/3 is frequently non-standard.

    Exactly right, which is why I based my decision off what I could gleam primarily from our poker conversations in addition to the general read I got off the guy (the hands I'd seem him play, his clothing, his age, his demeanour, his big headphones etc.)

    I've had great success these last few months 3 and 4 betting players based off similar reads.

    In this case I was right. He told me he'd have folded or possibly just called AK, and for whatever reason chose the min 5bet with QQ to "see if I had AA or KK."
  • Jay300Jay300 Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    I think calling pf is the best play here and see a flop . If u 4bet here and get shoved on your in a pretty bad spot unless you have a great read on the players
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    I'd rather 4-bet my AK and AQs (50%) as semi-bluffs with blockers, and flat my JJ. Good rule: don't turn strong into value bluffs. You get called with JJ, your all of the sudden tight butted, worried about a ton of over cards, likely behind, and now you probably punt your stack, pray for a J on the flop, or end up having to check fold.
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    I'd rather 4-bet my AK and AQs (50%) as semi-bluffs with blockers, and flat my JJ. Good rule: don't turn strong into value bluffs. You get called with JJ, your all of the sudden tight butted, worried about a ton of over cards, likely behind, and now you probably punt your stack, pray for a J on the flop, or end up having to check fold.

    Unless the SB is 3betting incredibly tight, 4betting here is not turning a strong hand into a value bluff. It's value all the way.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    MP2 50.91% 49.98% 0.94% TT+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+
    MP3 49.09% 48.15% 0.94% JdJh

    This is a somewhat standard "loose" live 3-betting range from the SB.

    I'll even throw in a few more suited Broadways.
    MP2 50.09% 49.16% 0.93% TT+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, AQo+
    MP3 49.91% 48.98% 0.93% JdJh

    If I'm V, I may not really have a 5-bet range if I wanna 3-bet lightly from the SB or I think you will 4-bet me lighter. This is 200 BB's, and if you wanna be able to protect your 3-bet range, not having a 5-bet range might make sense. Then again, he is OOP, so maybe a 5-bet range of AK, 50% of the AA, 50% of KK and then flat the rest might make sense.


    This 3-bet range hits 50% of the time. So 50% of the time, your gonna be left guessing if he has hit or not, or if you are beat. So sure, we will get some folds, but we will also potentially lose that EV we got from folds by being in tough spots where we may want to call down a street or two, or may have to reach deep into the hero tank and put on a cape, and then potentially still get stacked for 200 BB's.


    If you think his range is wider, and we can get more folds, give me a "reasonable" 3-betting range from the SB that you think V will do, and then justify where we make up money. As played, while it does make a bit more sense to 4-bet BECAUSE we have position, so we can potentially avoid losing some money that way, I just think that 4-betting here will inevitably lose us too much money against the range I proposed by forcing us to call a street or two and then have to give up, or realizing we are behind, and then turning our JJ into a bluff, but that's why I proposed AK or AQ, at least we have blockers, AND we can potentially dominate a portion of his range.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 155 ✭✭
    edited March 9
    Thanks for your input @jfarrow13

    These are the exact concerns I had with a 4bet here.

    Given the weak $15 iso from the button (who'd been regularly isolating $20-$25 with hands as weak as small suited aces) I had the SB on a range of:

    88+ ATs+ KQo KQs AQo+ plus a smattering of weaker offsuit broadways and A2s-A5s.

    I freely admit that this may have been a bit ambitious of me, and I could have been projecting my own 3bet range onto him. But again, that was my read at the time, and given the somewhat jovial, playful atmosphere at the table, it's been my experience that good players in a good mood with a stack are more likely to stretch limits rather than lock down and play it safe.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    @MichaelB I can certainly get on board with that for those reasons, and if you assign him that range, and you can start generating folds, then the 4-bet is a better +EV play there for sure.


    I just know that the potential for a disaster and massive stack punting is high. I used to be the CHAMPION of aggressive stealing for 2-3 hours, building up a stack, and then punting it off in one hand by forcing too much aggression.


    As long as you don't become too barrel happy and can navigate the 3-bet and 4-bet pots well, I think it's fine. I was just really bad playing live navigating 3-bet pots with hands such as KQo, KJs that I would 3-bet and then end up in really marginal spots, and feel "well, I'm REPPING AA here, so I just gotta keep barreling!" and then AK calls me down and I punt off 150 BB's after spending 2-3 hours building up 100 BB's.

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