5/10NLH live hand

AzorAhiAzorAhi Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
This hand happened at my first orbit at the table therefore villain and table dynamic info are quite lacking. I am usually playing 2/5 but take the occasional shot at 5/10. I have never played with either villain in this hand in a 2/5 game either. Hero picked up one pot without going to showdown in first orbit.

V1(3700) ia younger guy, looks like a poker player, but told me he is getting up soon because he can't find the spot in the game so it must be him
V2(2800) 40 something Dominican woman from BX drinking and mixing it up in half the hands I've been at the table
Hero(2100) bought in for 500 less than max

Hero is in the BB w :Tc :2c
V1 is the SB
V2 is the BTN

preflop action folds to BTN who limps,SB completes and Hero checks behind
pot $30

Flop :Kc :Jc :2D:

SB checks Hero checks BTN bets $25. SB calls Hero calls

Turn :Qh
pot $105
SB checks Hero checks BTN bets 45 SB calls calls Hero raises to $245 BTN calls and SB calls behind

river :6h
pot $840

SB checks and Hero leads for $485, BTN goes into the the tank for 5 minutes and finds the call, SB folds KJ faceup. BTN shows :Js :2s

My two questions about my play here are obviosly the turn and river spots. Is the turn raise terrible with me perceiving weakness in both spots and knowing equity is decent even if we get called? The river spot is where i need more help tho. I do this a lot with mixed results, I try to make my river bets always look like value rather than potting it or shipping it all in. Any advice on how you guys would have approached would be appreciated

AzorAhi

Comments

  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,750 -
    I was rooting for a check-raise on turn. Sizing was appropriate.

    On the river, I give up. There are two opponents, so it will be difficult to get through them both. They like their hands. We are mostly hoping for them to have bricked draws. Our busted flush blocks the exact hands we hope Villain has that will fold on the river.

    Given the multi-way river, and blocking the hands we want the Villains to fold, it is time to tap the table and congratulate the winner.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
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  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 251 ✭✭✭
    edited March 12
    Agree with Doug to give up river. a club draw is exactly what you want them to have here.
    I am OK X-raising some turns, but you absolutely cannot be X-raising all your club draws or you will not have enough value hands to balance it out. That being said, the Tc and Ac are great cards to have for a turn bluff, and my question for you is: do you actually have ATo here? What are your value hands? Because if I'm SB here (who clearly has a lot of two pair in his range), the only value hands you can have are 9T, AT, and 22. If you can have all those here, I think this is OK. If you don't, you are overbluffing.

    You could also count K2 and Q2 for value raises on the turn, but I actually think those are getting pretty thin multi-way. And when you jam river, you are repping straights and 22 only.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,643 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it would be good to point out that in the early stages of a game with new players, we don't have to worry too much about how we're balanced. The database is empty. In this hand only 2 things matter - our play in a vacuum, and how our play is going to be perceived going forward. As of right now, you're labeled a bluffer. While the turn bet can be considered a semi-bluff, the river can't.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • AzorAhiAzorAhi Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    Thanks for the feedback guys. I really appreciate it and will be posting more lines I think were mistakes soon. It is a spewy line based on what you guys have said here. I guess we are not folding enough stuff out to warrant this bet on the river, especially against multiple opponents.
    persuadeo wrote: »
    How does KJ fold??

    Maybe he was right about being the spot in the game. 🧐

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,643 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13
    To answer that rhetorical question literally, some players get into a certain spot in the hand and try to "put you on a hand", instead of narrowing down your range. They either think this is what they're supposed to do (try to narrow it down to one hand most likely, and play against that hand) or it just happens on some hands because of the action. They simply become convinced that someone must have a particular hand, rather than thinking of equity and odds against ranges that might lead down that same path.
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 251 ✭✭✭
    edited March 13
    persuadeo wrote: »
    How does KJ fold??

    He's behind nearly all Hero value bets, and the button called. It's tight, but I don't think ridiculous...? QJ is a snap fold.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    How does KJ fold??

    He's behind nearly all Hero value bets, and the button called. It's tight, but I don't think ridiculous...? QJ is a snap fold.

    nah, it's just bad. This line by the BB, who doesn't have 109 this way, rarely has a set this way, and is only repping a hand (A10) that normally raises pre or can take other lines on the flop, is bluff-heavy trash. The xr is bad and the sizing on the end, given the thinness of the line, is too small.
  • AzorAhiAzorAhi Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    nah, it's just bad. This line by the BB, who doesn't have 109 this way, rarely has a set this way, and is only repping a hand (A10) that normally raises pre or can take other lines on the flop, is bluff-heavy trash. The xr is bad and the sizing on the end, given the thinness of the line, is too small.

    How is 109 not in my range in BB here? KQ, 22 A10 off possibly w unknown players and bein OOP. I don’t like my river play but would you care to explain why you think the turn CR is so awful? I feel like it’s super polarized on the end but I could be wrong. I’m not bating you, really just looking for a further breakdown than “it’s just bad”
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 768 ✭✭✭
    Not sure why we are not CR the flop
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14
    AzorAhi wrote: »
    nah, it's just bad. This line by the BB, who doesn't have 109 this way, rarely has a set this way, and is only repping a hand (A10) that normally raises pre or can take other lines on the flop, is bluff-heavy trash. The xr is bad and the sizing on the end, given the thinness of the line, is too small.

    How is 109 not in my range in BB here? KQ, 22 A10 off possibly w unknown players and bein OOP. I don’t like my river play but would you care to explain why you think the turn CR is so awful? I feel like it’s super polarized on the end but I could be wrong. I’m not bating you, really just looking for a further breakdown than “it’s just bad”

    T9 would either bet flop or x/r as would 22. I would lean towards betting since SB checked and BTN shouldn't hit this board hard with a limping range. KQ and AT would raise pre in this formation.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14
    I'm responding to Phil, which is why I quoted him. The fold from KJ is bad, in other words.
    How is 109 not in my range in BB here? KQ, 22 A10 off possibly w unknown players and bein OOP. I don’t like my river play but would you care to explain why you think the turn CR is so awful? I feel like it’s super polarized on the end but I could be wrong. I’m not bating you, really just looking for a further breakdown than “it’s just bad”

    With that cleared up, yes, this line is bluff heavy. Check calling 109 is not likely, especially if you are checking range pre because you're worried about unknowns and will find RIO. You are perceived to be raising A10, especially A10s, but now it's a check this time? KQ, natural preflop raise, is not really a XR on the turn even if you have it. 22 is not really a xr, especially unsupported by A10 and the rest of the line, since most of it leads or xr flop. So it's both questionable and when it is available, unlikely on account of frequency.
    I feel like it’s super polarized on the end but I could be wrong.

    You are right it is somewhat polarized - but polarized to air and mispriced as such. Since you are non-nutted here the target is kings, never mind KJ, and the pricing needs to reflect that.
  • AzorAhiAzorAhi Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    Thanks for the clear cut man, that really puts it into perspective and exactly the type of response I was looking for
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 251 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    How does KJ fold??

    He's behind nearly all Hero value bets, and the button called. It's tight, but I don't think ridiculous...? QJ is a snap fold.

    nah, it's just bad. This line by the BB, who doesn't have 109 this way, rarely has a set this way, and is only repping a hand (A10) that normally raises pre or can take other lines on the flop, is bluff-heavy trash. The xr is bad and the sizing on the end, given the thinness of the line, is too small.

    OK, I agree on hero not having T9. I didn't look at the flop cbet sizing, and put more T9 in hero's range than I should.

    FWIW, it wouldn't surprise me if hero does have a lot of ATo here, although it should be a raise pre. I feel like a lot of small/mid stakes players would.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 251 ✭✭✭
    @persuadeo, I'm curious about your sizing comment - if hero is targeting kings, why should he be sizing up? I would have thought that targeting KX would be sizing down, since the line, as you said, is pretty thin (which I now agree with, FYI) - am I missing something?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,643 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I assume he meant targeting kings to fold - we're bluffing, right?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    OP infrequently has the nuts by this line but is raising representing the nuts,
    How is 109 not in my range in BB here? KQ, 22 A10 off
    which gets to bet larger and put kx in peril whether it calls or not, or I suppose check, maybe.

    (If OP had said, "I'm going to take a thin value line because I know how capped everyone is, so I'm going to xr merged and get heaps of value, but I want a few bluffs and this is one" maybe we'd approach this hand differently.)

    In other words, the nuts want to bet a lot, so it's not really a question of
    why should he be sizing up?
    but why would the nuts be sizing down?

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