Combo Draw vs Overpair

gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
$.02/.04 Online 6 Players

Hero is on BB with Ac8c.
CO raises to $.2. SB calls. Hero 3 bets to $.8. CO and SB call.

Pot: $2.40
Flop: 7c3d2c
SB checks. Hero bets $1.80. CO shoves with $3.22. SB folds. Hero has CO covered and calls. CO shows JdJc.

Turn: Qd
River: 4h

Was this just a cooler or did I make a mistake? I chose to 3 bet only as a squeeze play just because I blocked other aces. Otherwise, I would have folded the hand. I chose to c-bet since I could make better aces and low pairs fold, thus giving me some fold equity along with my outs. I chose to call since I had good pot odds even if I only had a flush draw available.

Comments

  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    edited March 18
    I don't usually consider these two overs as a combo draw, but maybe they are.

    Semantics aside, your reasoning as to why you should always bet this flop is spot on.

    The only criticism I have is the size of your flop bet commits you if you're shoved on. Here that's fine, because you should never be folding. But what if you have AdJd here? I prefer a bet closer to 35-50% of the pot on the flop so I'm not losing too much on the times I'm shoved on, plus you leave yourself some fold equity for the turn on those times they just call the flop and the turn is better for your range.
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    Learning a great insight from @MichaelB regarding bet sizing post flop.
    i wouldnt consider it a a combo draw, but a flush draw and one over, as the jam should mostly contain over pairs given the action pre-flop. some rare cases maybe a set of 77. also villian may show weak draws like k high to j high flush draws sometimes( not very often)
    as far as call goes, great odds for the call.
    As u said Ac8c 3 bet was a squeeze, so well seemed resonable, tho i prefer to call such hands as they have great implied especially multiway.
  • ROI RUINERROI RUINER Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    edited March 22
    Wouldn’t call it a cooler. You made the right call VS the shove. A fold would have been the wrong play. You had pot odds and then some. Just didn’t hit your draw.

    Only real flaw I’d say I had seen was preflop. Starts out 5bb raise with a 20bb 3bet. Your pretty much setting up stacks considering the effective stack. A8c is a good flat in BB. If you flat the pot is considerably smaller and the pot doesn’t get bloated as it did.

  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
    MichaelB wrote: »
    The only criticism I have is the size of your flop bet commits you if you're shoved on. Here that's fine, because you should never be folding. But what if you have AdJd here? I prefer a bet closer to 35-50% of the pot on the flop so I'm not losing too much on the times I'm shoved on, plus you leave yourself some fold equity for the turn on those times they just call the flop and the turn is better for your range.

    Could you explain the concept of leaving fold equity for the turn? I have never heard of this idea before and it sounds quite interesting.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    edited March 22
    Sure. Just say instead of betting $1.80 on the flop, which leaves only $1.40 left in villain's stack if he calls (essentially committing him to either fold or shove), he could have bet something like $0.95, and if villain calls, he's left with $2.25 behind. A shove on the turn is now less likely to be called by a one pair hand that doesn't even beat top pair, hence hero is said to have good fold equity.

    In a hand like this, imagine villain has a called the 3bet with a small pair. Let's say 66. If hero leads out for $.95, villain might rightly surmise he's up against two overs and call, hoping hero will give up if he whiffs the turn. But because hero was mindful of leaving enough chips behind for a sizeable turn shove, now villain is in a really tough spot facing a $2.25 turn shove with an underpair to the board. Did he really hit a Q? Does he really have an overpair? It's a very tough call with 66.
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
    Despite your good explanation, I still don’t fully get it. Is what you are saying that if you lower the bet size, you are allowing Villain to call instead of only folding or shoving which puts Villain into a harder spot in a later street due to a higher spr? If so, how do you factor in the fact that a draw is strongest when you are allowed to see both cards instead of just one?
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    edited March 23
    There are two ways of realising the equity you have with a club draw in this spot. 1) By hitting the flush or overcards and getting paid, and 2) by getting your opponent to fold a better hand.

    Imagine that the villain in this hand just called the flop bet. He now has $1.42 left in a $6 pot and can profitably call many more turn shoves with weaker holdings than he would be able to do with $2.25 left in a $4.30 pot. By betting smaller on the flop, hero has increased his fold equity on the turn.

    Is that a better explanation?
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
    edited March 23
    Thanks for explaining it again! :) Both explanations are good and I think that I understand it, though I won’t truly know until I face a similar situation in the future. It sounds a bit counterintuitive though with the fact that betting less in this case will increase fold equity.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    In this case, betting less will increase our turn fold equity. The simplest way of stating it is to leave yourself enough chips behind so that a bluff has a hope of getting through.

    It's a rookie mistake to bet the flop on a bluff without thinking about what you're gonna do if you're just called, and whether the chips left in your stack will be enough to get them to fold on a later street.
  • obliviusoblivius San FranciscoRed Chipper Posts: 81 ✭✭
    edited March 27
    Good advice from MichaelB for sure... the biggest issue is 3betting a 5x open plus caller. That's a problem as mentioned above. With the SB flatting you're getting great implied odds. When you get called by CO, who likely has a strong calling range, youre out of position and the SPR is horrible with a hand that really doesn't flop well... Unless you have stats or history with this guy the scenario is bleak

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