qq a fold pre???

Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
This is at a 5/10 table on Indian site. the blinds are rupees and microstakes really. Most Players are loose Passive
This is a 5 handed table
MP: 572
Co: 441
BTN: 810
SB( Hero): 725
BB: 591.
Pre FLop Action
Mp limps 10
Co raises 44
Btn Folds
Hero(Sb) 3bets 209
BB Folds
CO Goes All in 441
Hero Calls.
Hero Show :QC: :QS:
CO shows :AH: :AS:
runout is standard
CO wins 902.


these tables are primarily Loose and passive. people tend to raise with AJs+, AQo+. Most of them play their pairs very aggressively. especially when short.
its common to see JJ vs && when effective stack is less than 50bb.
So that led me to believe qq may be good here.
But the read was on population in general and not to this specific player. there were not enough hands.
Should QQ be fold here??
IS CO shove considered a 4bet jam ???
What range should Hero Call here with.
Also any mistakes in sizing.

I M posting this because in last 15 days or so, my QQ seem to always run up agaisnt AA/kk, probably because worse hands fold out.
My EVbb/100 for qq is -300 over 12k. Most of all hands that lost were all in pre flop and against shallow stacks.

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,013 -
    Yes, CO's shove is a 4-bet jam. Given how short they are you should be calling with pretty much your entire 3-bet range.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Yes, CO's shove is a 4-bet jam. Given how short they are you should be calling with pretty much your entire 3-bet range.

    but when i m jammed upon, they always show AA/KK. is it just the variance or mind playing tricks?
    I checked my hud, i had qq dealt 60 times, went pre flop all in 24 times and was up agaisnt KK/AA 22 times.
    no wonder my Evbb/100 for qq is -300.
    I hope i face other side of this match up too.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,013 -
    Onix1708 wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Yes, CO's shove is a 4-bet jam. Given how short they are you should be calling with pretty much your entire 3-bet range.

    but when i m jammed upon, they always show AA/KK. is it just the variance or mind playing tricks?
    I checked my hud, i had qq dealt 60 times, went pre flop all in 24 times and was up agaisnt KK/AA 22 times.
    no wonder my Evbb/100 for qq is -300.
    I hope i face other side of this match up too.

    Those stats are pretty amazing. If 4b-shove ranges are that narrow, there will be spots you can 3b-fold QQ pre, but because of stack depth this isn't one of them.

    To get dealt QQ 60 times and be facing AA/KK at least 22 is... This is 9-handed?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Onix1708 wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Yes, CO's shove is a 4-bet jam. Given how short they are you should be calling with pretty much your entire 3-bet range.

    but when i m jammed upon, they always show AA/KK. is it just the variance or mind playing tricks?
    I checked my hud, i had qq dealt 60 times, went pre flop all in 24 times and was up agaisnt KK/AA 22 times.
    no wonder my Evbb/100 for qq is -300.
    I hope i face other side of this match up too.

    Those stats are pretty amazing. If 4b-shove ranges are that narrow, there will be spots you can 3b-fold QQ pre, but because of stack depth this isn't one of them.

    To get dealt QQ 60 times and be facing AA/KK at least 22 is... This is 9-handed?

    no its 6- handed, 1c/2c 888 games
    over 12k hand sample
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,013 -
    That makes it even more surprising.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    is it bad run or rigged rng?
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    feels like m making excuses for my bad play. m sorry for that, but everytime i get qq now, m just too scared to jam.
    Also i havent seen a lot of preflop jams on 888. but on indian sites, i believe qq jam preflop is profitable.
    maybe we indian players are not as developed/skilled as others yet.
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 62 ✭✭
    Onix1708 wrote: »
    feels like m making excuses for my bad play. m sorry for that, but everytime i get qq now, m just too scared to jam.
    Also i havent seen a lot of preflop jams on 888. but on indian sites, i believe qq jam preflop is profitable.
    maybe we indian players are not as developed/skilled as others yet.

    How often are you seeing short stack preflop shoves show up with worse than QQ? If the worst that you're seeing with a high frequency is something like TT+, and AQs+, then I would start considering exploitatively folding, because it's a marginal spot at best. I would want to see villains showing up with at least 99 before I would start stacking off with QQ preflop. I would be more likely to stack with AK than QQ, because of the removal effects.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not sure how unusual this trend really is for a given pool and sample size, especially an entry level pool, or the equivalent of 1/2 live.

    The number of say, five bet jams with AQ and Axs or random bottom pole will likely rise per stake, yet here we are at the very bottom where we should expect it least often.

    Further:

    1) We have no information as to stacks or whether these were call offs or jams, which should be treated differently, just as stacks should be treated differently, as suggested by GK. Facing a jam, Onix will trend to see more AA/KK/AK and less JJ/1010.
    2) When you have QQ you leave all combinations of KK/AA available, so when raising you're more likely to be called by JJ/1010 and raised by AA/KK/AK. What would be far more unusual than what Onix is suggesting is to get AK all in and face a majority of AA/AK and not a mix of those, QQ,JJ, TT.
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    osirus0830 wrote: »
    Onix1708 wrote: »
    feels like m making excuses for my bad play. m sorry for that, but everytime i get qq now, m just too scared to jam.
    Also i havent seen a lot of preflop jams on 888. but on indian sites, i believe qq jam preflop is profitable.
    maybe we indian players are not as developed/skilled as others yet.

    How often are you seeing short stack preflop shoves show up with worse than QQ? If the worst that you're seeing with a high frequency is something like TT+, and AQs+, then I would start considering exploitatively folding, because it's a marginal spot at best. I would want to see villains showing up with at least 99 before I would start stacking off with QQ preflop. I would be more likely to stack with AK than QQ, because of the removal effects.

    i see short stack go pre all in at 77+ all the time on indian sites. never on 888.
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    edited March 21
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    That makes it even more surprising.

    m sorry for posting wrong stat. its times i got busted on qq. not necessarily up against aa/kk. it includes all times i shoved post where i should not have and vs AQ+ and AA and KK. i ll edit above for same.
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭

    What would be far more unusual than what Onix is suggesting is to get AK all in and face a majority of AA/AK and not a mix of those, QQ,JJ, TT.[/quote]

    Not really. when all in with AK, getting called by QQ is very often. But mostly AQ.
    JJ calls are generally limited to weaker players.
    Thus QQ jam becomes questionable as it only beats AQs and JJ which are limited to weaker players.
    In above hand, I had no read on the guy excpet the fact that he was a loose passive guy who would call Ak instead of 3bet OOP. this was only hand he raised till then, and maybe a few more in entire session of 200 or so hands.
    But without read and short i was more inclined to call the shove.
    i did so considering population tendency on this particular site.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not really. when all in with AK, getting called by QQ is very often. But mostly AQ.
    If you are seeing call offs from AQ but not JJ this is not a sign of a mature player pool, but one that doesn't understand equities.
    JJ calls are generally limited to weaker players.
    Well then you and the pool are just digging your own graves. The pool creates its level of thresholds by not fighting for pots, and so hands that could otherwise stack off become fishy calls.
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    So QQ becomes a fold on Pre shove in such pools???
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I suppose so or it is very close, unfortunately.

    However, this is where you have the opening to stand out, and to introduce a wider range, getting folds from hands that are otherwise optimal calls, and, to complete the circle, now stack off with QQ because your opponents understand you have a more complete stack off range.
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    edited March 22
    but isnt folding QQ on 5handed too nitty???especially low stacks???
    all the population tendency above are generally around 75+ bb deep.
    Around 50 bb effective maybe QQ could be a fold, but at this stake
    People shove with ATo at 35 bb or so. that what troubled the thought process.
    Havent seen a lot of 50 bb shoves.
    Also didnt have a particular read on this player at this time, tho as session went on, this particular villian seemed passive( very), unfortunately after this hand.
    apparently this was one of few hands he raised.
  • LagtardLagtard Red Chipper Posts: 93 ✭✭
    edited March 22
    Onix1708 wrote: »
    I checked my hud, i had qq dealt 60 times, went pre flop all in 24 times and was up agaisnt KK/AA 22 times.
    Wow that is insane bad variance. I slow down with QQ in some situations. Not 95+% of the time but have had that happen enough times to know it can happen.

    I’ve seen players with 3bet stats as low as 1%. I’ve folded JJ and QQ against them very regularly. If you know the player well enough to know that’s all they will shove pre flop I think it’s an easy fold. Their hand is face up.


    Good news is the poker gods owe you lots of pots with QQ.
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    thanks a ton for your insight @Lagtard
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    but isnt folding QQ on 5handed too nitty???especially low stacks???
    Measured against what? An "optimal" game or your interpretation of your pool?

    Anyway, there is a path either way, as I suggested. What players do is not fixed.
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    but isnt folding QQ on 5handed too nitty???especially low stacks???
    Measured against what? An "optimal" game or your interpretation of your pool?

    Anyway, there is a path either way, as I suggested. What players do is not fixed.
    thanks a lot for insight
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 579 ✭✭✭
    @Onix1708 I would also have a hard look at your bet sizing choices, as you might inadvertently be influencing the ranges that you ultimately feel you must stack off against.
  • Onix1708Onix1708 Pune, IndiaRed Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭

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