To Float or Not to Float

gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
$.02/.04 Online 6 Players
Effective Stack: $4.18

Hero is on BU with :QH: :JD: .
CU raises to $.12. Hero calls.

Pot: $.3
Flop: :8S: :3D: :TS:
CU bets $.15. Hero calls.

Pot: $.6
Turn: :8H:
CU bets $.3. Hero folds.

I only called the flop just to float the turn. However, I don't know when is or isn't a good time to do so. Was this a good time to float? If so, is it a good time to double float?
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Comments

  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    edited March 25
    I like the float if your intention is to bet any spade, low card, the straight and some jacks and queens.

    I'm not sure you can call the turn without a bluff catcher though. He didn't raise from early position so it's not like there aren't any 8s in his range, and if you just flat here, you're essentially telling him you don't have one, which leaves you vulnerable to being bluffed off or bluff catched on the river.

    Consider 3betting pre? Not 100% of the time, but sometimes.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Two overs and a gutshot with position facing a 1/2 pot bet? I think its a good spot to float with the intention to fire spades if they were to fall and V checks.

    I also would 3 bet this hand some of the time vs a CO open some of the time depending on who the V is.

    On the turn, I think its fine to fold. 88, A8s, 78, 98, T8 would all reasonably be in V range, maybe even things like K8, Q8, J8 depending on the player. He can also have a host of Ts, and his overs are often going to be ahead of your overs, so personally I think a fold is fine.
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    I personally think you should be raising this flop rather than floating - when you float here I think V is going to bet the turn often and put you into a spot where you either need to fold or put in a raise (though I do think flatting the flop with the intention of betting or raising the turn is an okay play also.)

    You have a draw and two overs, but your equity doesn't do you any good if you're forced to fold before showdown. Also, calling the flop raise allows V to cheaply continue with all of the hands he c-bet as bluffs that currently have you dominated, so if you do pair your Q or J you may still lose the pot when raising the flop could have folded out most of those hands.

    Bottom line - if you're going to flat QJo preflop, I think it needs to be with the intention of pushing V out of the pot on a lot of boards.

    I also don't think this is a very good 3-bet pre - again, because of all of the hands that dominate you. V's 3-bet calling range is likely full of AQ, AJ, KQ, andd KJ.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm no fan of raising flop. Yes, we could rep some draws and more nutted hands (still, not that sure, depending on how wide V is opening...). Kinda the feeling that raising flop will often lead Hero to be a spewy monkey and play for stacks with a hands without much expectations to have with - in terms of equity, draw or blockers. (We don't have nothing, but it's pretty light.) For bluff, I'd prefer other combos to push on the flop, like QdJd, As3s, 9h7h, etc.

    I'm not against a flop float, but then it's surely not to fold when such a great card as :8H: hits! I'm going to float with all my 8X combos, so it's a great cards to rep trips and put pressure on the fat belly of V's c-bet range.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    So @Red are you raising the turn, then? Or just calling there as well.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭✭
    So @Red are you raising the turn, then? Or just calling there as well.

    raising.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    I too like a turn raise here.
  • obliviusoblivius San FranciscoRed Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    IF you raise the turn here, and I also think it a decent play, you have to follow through with a river bet.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,779 -
    No one has mentioned that the pre-flop call is meh.

    People mostly agree that the Miller ranges are about as loose as you can play:

    https://redchippoker.com/infographic-pre-flop-ranges/

    gn7ulagjj2av.png

    This hand versus tight or loose openers is a fold. It is barely an open in an unopened pot.

    Hand charts are only a guide, but even this wide set of ranges does not play here. What are the reasons?
    • QJo is unsuited, wildly lowering the playability.
    • This hand is easily dominated by AQ, KQ, AJ, KJ, QJs
    • This hand rarely will dominate QT, JT, Q9s, J9s
    • There are only two OESD sets of key cards KTx and T9x
    • One specific double gutter: AT8

    Running this through Flop Falcon (https://redchippoker.com/flop-falcon-tutorials/)

    We see this:

    1p4a08sorono.jpg

    The upper left histogram shows we both hit TP+ or a draw about 20% of the time. When we do, we have 43% equity (remember when we hit!) Not only does this set us up for "coolers" but our equity share is spread evenly. So we will have an absolute bear actualizing our equity, and often get serious reverse implied odds. We will almost never have confidence in playing out the hand.

    TLDR: Just fold pre.



    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Didn't even consider the preflop decision. Good call, Doug.
  • obliviusoblivius San FranciscoRed Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Well Doug Hull, whoever you are, the OP question was to Float or Not to Float... Of course every one of us here knew that QJo was a fold PF..... LOL.... Also, thanks :-) .
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    QJo isn't a junk hand and you do have the button, as mentioned above, shouldn't we be considering 3betting here a percentage of the time. I know I certainly would against the right player with no one out of the ordinary in the blinds.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    I'm no fan of raising flop. Yes, we could rep some draws and more nutted hands (still, not that sure, depending on how wide V is opening...). Kinda the feeling that raising flop will often lead Hero to be a spewy monkey and play for stacks with a hands without much expectations to have with - in terms of equity, draw or blockers. (We don't have nothing, but it's pretty light.) For bluff, I'd prefer other combos to push on the flop, like QdJd, As3s, 9h7h, etc.

    I'm not against a flop float, but then it's surely not to fold when such a great card as :8H: hits! I'm going to float with all my 8X combos, so it's a great cards to rep trips and put pressure on the fat belly of V's c-bet range.

    Now that I'm lurking for hands to feed my brain, I find that I disagree with myself. I really dislike the float now :)

    We have nothing but a gutshot. We have no spades blocker / bckd FD. Not sure our Q and J outs are alive. We aren't at the bottom of our range (we have worst hands like 76s) so we shall not turn it into a bluff.
    So I'm still against raising.

    But I really don't see any reason to float either - with this hand, for the reason mentioned. The only moment we could float is when V is over folding: we can then raise any scary card and steal the pot. But this requires an overfolding Villain as we are basically raising with napkins.
    Yet, QJ no spades means we block QQ and JJ no spades, which might lower our FE on a turn spade... and requires a 2nd expensive river barrel. Which is even more problematic if Villain could cbet FD (and be on flush we don't block).

    All together, I'll just let it go on flop
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    No one has mentioned that the pre-flop call is meh.
    Yes calling pre is not putting us into a premium spot with a premium hand. But folding QJo on the BU - esp. if blinds won't squeeze - is way too nitty I think. We are folding 44% equity (preflop) against the range 27% range you input into flopfalcon.
    I won't let 44% equity and the absolute position go for 3bb.

    Sure there will be situations where we are dominated. But there are other when we are dominating (for ex. against JT on JXX or against QT on QXX).
    And position is king. If we are able to use it greatly, we will be able to reduce our losses, realize our equity more often, steal the pot more often, make thin value bet more easily.
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    QJo is unsuited, wildly lowering the playability.
    We are losing some postflop maneuverability as we don't have FD / bckdFD and might have a lack of blocker for them. Yet I'd not overestimate this effect. Sure it's a big deal for low SC/gapers - I can call with 75s but 75o is out of the question - , but QJo IP is still strong enough that losing this playability and its 3% equity is ok.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 514 ✭✭✭
    Agreed with Doug that it's a fold pre, even if villain opened 2.5x. FWIW The Grinders Manual also says you can't call, and that's like the bible of online 6-max. You could use it as a 3-bet though depending on how you want to construct your bluffing range (and whether you want to have a bluffing range at all).

    As played I am indeed floating this flop, though I can definitely see Red's arguments against it. The thing is that at the micros in my experience many players auto-cbet a lot and then give up on the turn. We have a nice candidate able to turn the nuts and we can make top pair.

    On the turn I would also raise with this particular hand, repping 87s, 98s, A8s and 33. Yes I am going to be overbluffing here but that would be an exploit against the player pool.
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    @Red you mentioned that you think folding this hand preflop is too nitty, but then when it flops a gutshot and two overs, you are in favor of folding in position for a half pot c-bet. Doesn't this just feel like trading preflop nittiness for post flop nittiness?

    If you're going to flat this hand, I really don't think it should be with the intention of giving up so easy on this flop. If you do, how many hands are you actually continuing with? V can just c-bet with impunity.

    FWIW I think the choice to flat or fold pre is pretty borderline and can go either way.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    As played I am indeed floating this flop, though I can definitely see Red's arguments against it. The thing is that at the micros in my experience many players auto-cbet a lot and then give up on the turn. We have a nice candidate able to turn the nuts and we can make top pair.
    Roblivion wrote: »
    @Red you mentioned that you think folding this hand preflop is too nitty, but then when it flops a gutshot and two overs, you are in favor of folding in position for a half pot c-bet. Doesn't this just feel like trading preflop nittiness for post flop nittiness?

    If you're going to flat this hand, I really don't think it should be with the intention of giving up so easy on this flop. If you do, how many hands are you actually continuing with? V can just c-bet with impunity.

    FWIW I think the choice to flat or fold pre is pretty borderline and can go either way.
    I'm ok to float - and I even think I tend to float to liberally - , but I way prefer a made hand than overs and gutshot. I'd float with like 9d8d here for ex.
    So clearly I don't think that V could abuse me with his c-bet, I'd but chose other hands to continue.
    But that my personal taste :)
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 514 ✭✭✭
    OK let's dive into that though. Maybe we are stuck in semantics here, but a "float" in my mind defines the intention of calling the c-bet: to take it down on a next street when checked to. You're just setting up a bluff, basically. For that reason, I don't really see the use of floating a made hand. If I were to call here with 9d8d I'm usually checking behind or protection betting it on the turn. Quite something different than with QJ.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    OK let's dive into that though. Maybe we are stuck in semantics here, but a "float" in my mind defines the intention of calling the c-bet: to take it down on a next street when checked to. You're just setting up a bluff, basically. For that reason, I don't really see the use of floating a made hand. If I were to call here with 9d8d I'm usually checking behind or protection betting it on the turn. Quite something different than with QJ.

    Float means simply calling with a weak hand with street(s) still to play. Hence the imagery of "floating" - something less dense than water, something potentially flimsy that may or may not turn into something more robust or feign to be.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 514 ✭✭✭
    Then it's indeed a semantics thing. Way I learned it is to call with the intention of betting when checked to on the next street.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 514 ✭✭✭
    And that's what's RCP is teaching their students too. The CORE lesson on floating specifically defines it as calling with the intention of bluffing later.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 16
    Sure, and that is a reasonable interpretation that many share, and is even written about in this fashion. However, we can see it is strategically and even logically questionable, as the next card may not favor a steal at all, or will otherwise change the strategy.

    So a float is best thought of as including a potential play for the pot, not a necessary one, but always starts with a light peel.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 514 ✭✭✭

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