Limit Omaha 8 High only hand

Big_O07Big_O07 Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
Limit Omaha 4/8 - very passive game with 6 to 7 limpers per hand - very few preflop raises.

******************
Hero on BB with: :Ah :Qh :Kd :Kc

6 limper in with the SB folding

******************
Pot: 7.5 small bets

Flop: :Ks :5h :4h

Hero bets
5 people call

******************
Pot: about 6 big bets

Flop: :Ks :5h :4H: :8d

Hero checks
CO bets
Button calls
Hero calls
2 other calls
******************
Pot: 11 big bets

River: :Ks :5h :4H: :8d :Jh

Hero bets
2 calls and neither show their hands
******************

Questions:

Should I have raised preflop?
Should I have bet on the turn?

This is a relatively uneventful hand but any advice on playing it better/different would be appreciated.


Comments

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Big_O07 wrote: »
    Should I have raised preflop?

    No.
    Big_O07 wrote: »
    Should I have bet on the turn?

    This is a good question and I'm not really sure. I'm leaning toward yes, for 2 reasons.
    - you'll get called by a lot that you beat
    - All 3 of your high hands can never be shared (set, boat or flush)

    The high straight and the low hand have something in common - they are often shared. It's possible you will on rare occasions lose top boat to quads, but other than that you're drawing to the nuts that you scoop half with (sounds funny, but I mean you will never chop that half of the pot.) So this point is in favor of betting.

    It was surprising that 7 people were in this hand and no one had a low, but normally I think you can easily get called in 2 places by someone with low hands. If this were Pot Limit you'd have a harder time justifying betting but in Limit you simply can't possibly get hurt here. If you bet and get raised by the straight it's not good. You're in fairly bad shape against A2xx and 76xx (20%). But in terms of pot odds you're still totally fine of course even if not optimal. I just think there are so many other hands that can call you here it's probably fine.
  • AnthonyBaum____AnthonyBaum____ Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Betting the flop has merit, but it puts you in control of the pot and you would have to continue to bet for value instead of laying in the weeds. On the turn, the guy directly after you bets and everyone calls, I think with the high probability of winning the high, raising on the turn would be warranted also into the 4 committed field members.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Big_O07 wrote: »
    Should I have raised preflop?

    No.
    Why not ? AKKQhxxh ist such a great hand, isn't it worth it to raise ?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Big_O07 wrote: »
    Should I have raised preflop?

    No.
    Why not ? AKKQhxxh ist such a great hand, isn't it worth it to raise ?

    You are vying for a scoop in this game, not just a high.

    Where @Greg_Vail
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Big_O07 wrote: »
    Should I have raised preflop?

    No.
    Why not ? AKKQhxxh ist such a great hand, isn't it worth it to raise ?

    You are vying for a scoop in this game, not just a high.

    Where @Greg_Vail

    I'd totally agree if it was PLO8, but here OP is playing Omaha - high only.
    Do I miss anything here ?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Greg_VailGreg_Vail RCP Coach Posts: 53 ✭✭
    This is High Only therefore this hand should be bet through. If you are raised on the Turn, we call and lead all cards that improve us past 7-6 since we are extremely unlikely to get a CR in on a 7-6 combination since any hand containing 7-6 is unlikely to contain a Kh Xh as well.

    Simple and straightforward hand. Bet through, call when/if raised on Turn, lead River if improved.

    Feel free to contact me directly if you have any Omaha questions so that I can get you the correct information.

    Greg
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for coming out Greg.

    Still, how can a game called O8 be high only? The 8 means something.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Thanks for coming out Greg.

    Still, how can a game called O8 be high only? The 8 means something.

    I think it's a miswrite in the title: in the OP we learn that the game 4/8. Maybe the title presents the stakes.

    so what is true @Big_O07 ?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Surely the OP means his hand is a high only hand. This is common lingo when referring to a hand in hi/lo. Not only did he specifically put "8" in the title, but as far as I know, there is not even any such game as Limit Omaha High. I mean it's not illegal, but I've certainly never heard of it in any casino. And we've played some dang wacky dealer choice games, and never heard of it there either. (This is where someone comes along and tells me they play Limit Omaha High all the time at their casino, and I learn something new.....)
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,070 -
    Limit Omaha High is played daily at Boulder Station.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Of course :)

    Sounds awful - which is less fun, that or 5 card stud?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,070 -
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Of course :)

    Sounds awful - which is less fun, that or 5 card stud?

    It's actually surprisingly entertaining. But is also the reason why I snort with derision when I hear anyone describe an NLHE game as "bingo" poker.

    5-card stud can be saved by playing it h/l with a 6th card buy/replace.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Big_O07Big_O07 Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Thank you for all the comments and I apologize for the confusion. The title just meant I had a high hand only. It was Omaha hi/lo but can see why it was confusing because there was no low made in the hand. That confused me as well when I played it but wasn't going to complain about taking the whole pot!

    This is the first hand I've posted and I will make sure to be more clear next time. I promise! Sorry guys...

    The reason I didn't bet on the turn was because I assumed someone had a low and that I was playing for only half the pot now. I figured a check and call would be the best play at that point to see if I improved.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3
    Remember that playing for half the pot is only a problem when you're heads up, or when you can share your half (e.g. getting 1/6 of the pot when 4 handed because 3 people share the same low). When you're in a 7 way pot and you're only putting in 1/7 of the money but winning 1/2 the pot, it's very profitable. It's probably not going to be 7 players any more when you bet, but even putting in 25% of the money and winning 50% of the pot is profitable. The only thing to worry about was 76xx.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Remember that playing for half the pot is only a problem when you're heads up, or when you can share your half (e.g. getting 1/6 of the pot when 4 handed because 3 people share the same low). When you're in a 7 way pot and you're only putting in 1/7 of the money but winning 1/2 the pot, it's very profitable. It's probably not going to be 7 players any more when you bet, but even putting in 25% of the money and winning 50% of the pot is profitable. The only thing to worry about was 76xx.

    As much as I agree with you, isn't there a flaw in this thinking? You open yourself to a re-raise, which put a high only hands in a difficult spot. (Yes we hold the golden card - :AH: - and our hand is a monster high, so we should not fold when raise, but I'm more thinking in terms of range)
    Or maybe my only PLO8 experiences where on too aggro/maniac tables :0)
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    As much as I agree with you, isn't there a flaw in this thinking? You open yourself to a re-raise, which put a high only hands in a difficult spot.

    If by "re-raise" you mean "raise", that's true but I'd call that a counter argument not a flaw in the thinking. I was responding to his comment "The reason I didn't bet on the turn was because I assumed someone had a low and that I was playing for only half the pot now". I'm saying that's not a good reason to check the turn (in this hand with so many opponents). The only reason to check the turn is if you think you're going to get raised by 76xx and possibly not even win your half of the pot. So in that sense I agree which is why I said in my OP that you're in bad shape against one player with A2 and another player with 76.

    Having said that, while it's non-optimal, I also wouldn't call it a "difficult spot". It seems like a fairly easy spot to me: you call because you're getting excellent odds. If we were playing PLO8 we could possibly be in a difficult spot*. Absolute worst case scenario is we'd be getting 9:1 for half the pot which translates to 4.5:1 for our nut flush plus top boat draw. You have 17 outs I think, for which 2:1 odds is more than enough. More typically though you're going to have a couple low hands in there and you'll be getting more like 13:1, or 6.5:1 effective which obviously is a no-brainer profitable call.

    * Note that in pot limit games it's never possible to give your opponent worse than 2:1 odds, so even in PLO8 you'd have to consider calling here unless you're pretty sure your opponent has blockers with a hand like :AD: :4D: :7H: :6H:, or :8S: :8C: :7H: :6H: . You truly are in bad shape heads up against those hands. But again I think it's rare that you're going to be heads up in a 7-way hand and no one having a low they'll call with.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    Ok, thanks for the reply
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3
    I got my half pot and full pot thinking jumbled in a couple spots:
    jeffnc wrote: »
    in pot limit games it's never possible to give your opponent worse than 2:1 odds, so even in PLO8 you'd have to consider calling here

    Actually that's not true. Even if he has :QD: :JD: :7C: :6C: you still have to fold if he pots it.
    jeffnc wrote: »
    You have 17 outs I think, for which 2:1 odds is more than enough.

    That is for the whole pot of course. The odds are actually about 1.8:1, so you need 3.6:1 for half the pot.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Greg_VailGreg_Vail RCP Coach Posts: 53 ✭✭
    Since this has been established as an O8 hand......

    Should you have raised Pre-Flop?

    This is going to depend on the game and it not going to be one way or the other every time. If this is the type of game where there is constant back raising/limp-reraising, then I would suggest checking the option, but from the sound of this game, I would say this is fine. We want to get more aggressive with hands like this one when the table is more passive. On the topic of Pre-Flop, we are not and should not be considering folding this hand in fixed limit nor should we ever be limping. In MOST passive games Pre-Flop, we will be raising this hand Pre-Flop and looking to get what we need, which is an all High Flop or a very strong High hand (which is what you Flopped). If we don't get exactly what we need, we should be check folding the Flop. We should not be drawing at a Nut Flush draw only if the Flop contains three Low cards.

    Should you have bet the Turn?

    Also depending on the game, but the answer is usually yes. In this example, I see that you check/called one bet. I don't mind this line because checking and getting a bet to your left makes you the effective button which is helpful in a hand where we have the second nut High. We need to know IF the 7-6 is out there and where it is. Not for this street necessarily, but for the decision on a blank River card. Although I don't mind the check call, it does give us one problem that I am not a fan of. Checking allows lesser hands to bet that COULD make us a difficult decision on this street and the following street. We would be guessing whether the opponent is betting with a 7-6 or a Low combination hand. With that being said, I prefer betting the Turn since you SHOULD only be raised by a 7-6. Although we would not be folding with the size of the pot, it is helpful to know IF it is out there and where it is. Keep in mind, in passive games, players will usually only raise with a nut hand, but will bet and call with all sorts of crap. I also prefer betting the Turn because we do not want this to be checked around.

    On the note of running into the 7-6 straight on the Turn, we don't care even if it is out there. As played with the line you chose, there are 10 Big bets in the pot when you are making the call for 1. Even if we are 100% sure that a 7-6 Straight is in play, which we have no information to conclude this definitively, we are getting 5-1 to call for our half of the pot (the High only) and will win the High with 17 out of the remaining 40 unknown River cards (allowing one A-2 and one 7-6 to exist in the field even though neither was actually in play) which is good for a 42.5% chance of winning the High. We would only require about a 20% chance to make this a break even call. Another way of looking at this is we would have 21.25% equity on the entire pot getting 10-1 on the call. This means we are getting about 2x the price to be calling on the Turn that we would need.

    If you have any questions on future Omaha HL hands, I'd suggest contacting me directly so that I can give you the correct information. Fixed limit is a system that you simply plug into and my fixed limit O8 students are able to learn this system rather easily.

    Good Luck out there!

    Greg
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,070 -
    Greg_Vail wrote: »
    If you have any questions on future Omaha HL hands, I'd suggest contacting me directly so that I can give you the correct information. Fixed limit is a system that you simply plug into and my fixed limit O8 students are able to learn this system rather easily.

    Good Luck out there!

    Greg

    But please post in the forum too, so that we all get the benefit of the discussion.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Greg_Vail wrote: »
    If you have any questions on future Omaha HL hands, I'd suggest contacting me directly so that I can give you the correct information.

    Hey @TheGameKat is the forum being discontinued??


  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,070 -
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Greg_Vail wrote: »
    If you have any questions on future Omaha HL hands, I'd suggest contacting me directly so that I can give you the correct information.

    Hey @TheGameKat is the forum being discontinued??


    Nope. See my previous response.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Big_O07Big_O07 Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Thanks for the advice on this hand everyone.


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