Getting raised on the turn with trips on draw heavy board

osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 46 ✭✭
Venue: Majestic Star
Stakes: 1/2
Effective Stack: $141

Villain 1 UTG (stack $141) limps for $2
Hero (covers) is UTG + 1 with :TS: :9S:
Hero raises to $12.
Villain 2 (covers) MP calls $12
Villain 1 calls

Flop: :9D: :9C: :2C:

Villain 1 checks
Hero bets $15
Villain 2 calls
Villain 1 calls

Turn: :4D:

Villain 1 checks
Hero bets $25
Villain 2 calls
Villain 1 shoves for $114

Hero???

Relevant reads:

Villain 1 is someone who I have played with multiple times. He is capable of bluffing. He attempted to bluff me off of a set when there was four to a straight during a previous session. He is pretty much a fun player.

Question and thoughts:

Paired boards are the source of my biggest leaks. I am absolutely terrible ranging people and reading hands on paired flops. My question is what part of my range should I be willing to call this with? Strictly A9s? It was a difficult spot because the raise wasn't that large, and I don't normally play T9s from EP, but the table was loose passive, so I expanded my opening range. Also, from your experience, what types of hands are villains shoving on this type of board?

Comments

  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 203 ✭✭✭
    edited April 8
    First off, your bet on the turn seems on the small side. Against two opponents, at least one of them should want to continue if they called the flop. They may have even improved to a backdoor flush draw. Why not get max value? I think you're losing a decent chunk of potential winnings by giving them such a generous price. I'd have bet something like $40-$55 here, depending on how sticky my opponents are.

    Secondly, never fold in this spot. Given you block other 9x hands, the only other hand to worry about is 22, with an outside chance of 44. And what 9x hands do people call UTG+1 raises with anyway? A9s, maybe K9s. Not as often with Q9s or J9s. But definitely 89s and possibly 79s. And even if you are beat, you will have at least 7 outs to improve to the best hand on the river.

    The most important reason why you need to call here though is because you're not supposed to have a 9 here, so his shoving range is going to be overloaded with bluffs, as opposed to what it would be if it had come down KKx, QQx or even JJx. Against a thinking player, I'd bluff shove all my flush draws in this spot, especially given the small bet.
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    edited April 8
    MichaelB wrote: »
    First off, your bet on the turn seems on the small side. Against two opponents, at least one of them should want to continue if they called the flop. They may have even improved to a backdoor flush draw. Why not get max value? I think you're losing a decent chunk of potential winnings by giving them such a generous price. I'd have bet something like $40-$55 here, depending on how sticky my opponents are.

    Secondly, never fold in this spot. Given you block other 9x hands, the only other hand to worry about is 22, with an outside chance of 44. And what 9x hands do people call UTG+1 raises with anyway? A9s, maybe K9s. Not as often with Q9s or J9s. But definitely 89s and possibly 79s. And even if you are beat, you will have at least 7 outs to improve to the best hand on the river.

    The most important reason why you need to call here though is because you're not supposed to have a 9 here, so his shoving range is going to be overloaded with bluffs, as opposed to what it would be if it had come down KKx, QQx or even JJx. Against a thinking player, I'd bluff shove all my flush draws in this spot, especially given the small bet.

    why on earth would you be bluff shoving with flush draws into a clear value range when you have direct odds to draw?

    It would be super bizarre for the opponent to be bluffing with a diamond or club draw here, and he should basically never ever be doing this (if he's a good thinking player) with a nut flush draw. I will say, however, that sadly, I've seen small stakes players do this quite a bit, so I suppose you should give him some chance of having a flush draw. Only you have seen him play, and you will have to range him appropriately. But your line does not look bluffy, and his jam here is extremely strong into two players who could each have the effective nuts. The trick for OP here imo is to try to figure out how many worse 9X UTG might do this with in his limping range, and to try to estimate whether V is overbluffing draws in this spot.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,889 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What is the stack between you and the second villain? Sorry if i missed it, but i only see "covers."
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 46 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    What is the stack between you and the second villain? Sorry if i missed it, but i only see "covers."

    I start the hand with $300, the other villain has roughly $450.
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 46 ✭✭
    Thanks to everyone for the helpful replies. I definitely appreciate it.

    Results:

    Hero calls
    Villain 2 folds.

    River blank

    Villain shows :AH: :9H:

    Key takeaway for me is that it was likely a fold since it was a multi way pot. I had a read that villain 2 was on a flush draw because he doesn't normally play low pocket pairs. The worst pair I've ever seen him show down was 7s based on about 30 hours of play together.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 203 ✭✭✭
    edited April 8
    Wait, OP's takeaway is that he should've folded anything less than A9, but I'd be wrong to shove :6c :7c or :Jc :Tc here? He's folding all his overpairs and snap folding 66-88.

    I agree though, his line is not bluffy, but also doesn't look super strong, which is why I think he'd find a lot of aggressive players putting pressure on him to fold.
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 46 ✭✭
    MichaelB wrote: »
    Wait, OP's takeaway is that he should've folded anything less than A9, but I'd be wrong to shove :6c :7c or :Jc :Tc here? He's folding all his overpairs and snap folding 66-88.

    I agree though, his line is not bluffy, but also doesn't look super strong, which is why I think he'd find a lot of aggressive players putting pressure on him to fold.

    It's the multi way nature of the pot. I feel that the hand strength has to be higher if a player is shoving into two players. I could be wrong though.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 203 ✭✭✭
    The multiway nature of the pot says a lot about your hand. I really wouldn't expect you to be barrelling two over here, but if you are actually only calling all in with trips or better here, can't I just profitably shove on you with pretty much any two?
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 203 ✭✭✭
    edited April 9
    Given your turn bet looks like a blocker bet, you should expect him to also jam with weaker 9s and maybe TT-QQ for value and to charge you the full price for your equity in the pot. I'm really struggling to come up with a fold here, especially since you pointed out he's a capable bluffer and a fun player.
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 46 ✭✭
    MichaelB wrote: »
    Given your turn bet looks like a blocker bet, you should expect him to also jam with weaker 9s and maybe TT-QQ for value and to charge you the full price for your equity in the pot. I'm really struggling to come up with a fold here, especially since you pointed out he's a capable bluffer and a fun player.

    I assume that even the weakest fish is opening TT+, so when he limps, I can't put him on an over pair. I don't know what weaker 9s are calling under the gun. Maybe 98, but that's a stretch. Villain has to be willing to shove all ace high Broadway clubs for me not to make an exploitative fold there. I definitely recognize that when I go to 2/5 and higher I have to just sigh and call it off, but I feel like I can exploitatively fold at this level.
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 203 ✭✭✭
    Okay, scratch that about overpairs, I thought V1 was the guy who cold called your raise. As to limp calls with a suited 9, I wouldn't be surprised to see 79 and 89 at all, but obv then J9 -K9s as well. I'm still never folding to this guy, but you were there and you know the field and players, so if that's your read, that's your read.
  • thewolfmanthewolfman Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    MichaelB wrote: »
    Okay, scratch that about overpairs, I thought V1 was the guy who cold called your raise. As to limp calls with a suited 9, I wouldn't be surprised to see 79 and 89 at all, but obv then J9 -K9s as well. I'm still never folding to this guy, but you were there and you know the field and players, so if that's your read, that's your read.

    66% of the time I agree with you 100%

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