Correct to Let Villain Fire?

gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
$.02/.04 Online 5 Players
Effective Stack Size: $3.46

Hero is on BB with :KS: :JS: .
SB raises to $.12. Hero raises to $.35. SB calls.

Pot: $.70
Flop: :TD: :QS: :KH:
SB bets $.45. Hero calls.

Pot: $1.60
Turn: :3D:
SB bets $1.00. Hero calls.

Pot: $3.60
River: :AS: .
SB shoves with $1.66. Hero calls.

SB shows :JC: :TC: .

I let Villain fire since I thought that if I raised I might scare Villain away since Villain could fire with an Ace, Jack, 9, or a worse King or that a raise would only have better hands such as two pair or made straights call. Was that a good move?
Tagged:

Comments

  • AkashicAkashic Red Chipper Posts: 67 ✭✭
    This is exactly what you want to do. If you suspect your opponent will fire, you need to let him and call. Sometimes it blows up, but that's part of the fun.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    edited April 9
    Akashic wrote: »
    This is exactly what you want to do. If you suspect your opponent will fire, you need to let him and call. Sometimes it blows up, but that's part of the fun.

    Terrible post. Hero burned money here.

    - So some 4nl fish 3x's you from the sb and you don't even raise 3x? You bump him to $0.40 or $.45 here.

    - Pot will be bigger on flop now and SPR will be lower. When he donks flop, you snap jam.

    - Profit.

    You can't play that passively with TPGK and a combo draw over a $3 pot. Why are you being passive here? You have a massive equity advantage, a nut advantage, initiative...??? Effective stack size isn't even 100bb's.
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
    Joseph F wrote: »
    Akashic wrote: »
    This is exactly what you want to do. If you suspect your opponent will fire, you need to let him and call. Sometimes it blows up, but that's part of the fun.

    Terrible post. Hero burned money here.

    - So some 4nl fish 3x's you from the sb and you don't even raise 3x? You bump him to $0.40 or $.45 here.

    - Pot will be bigger on flop now and SPR will be lower. When he donks flop, you snap jam.

    - Profit.

    You can't play that passively with TPGK and a combo draw over a $3 pot. Why are you being passive here? You have a massive equity advantage, a nut advantage, initiative...??? Effective stack size isn't even 100bb's.

    I thought that I would get more value out of Villain firing since if I raised, Villain would fold. Why isn’t this a valid idea in this case?
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    I do the same thing. The only worse hands that may call a raise are JT and QJ. He wants to give you his money, no need to give him any reason to deviate from his plan.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭✭
    Why calling with TP + OESD on such board ? Do you really think V has that many worst hands to bluff with that TP can win enough of the time ?
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
    gl523 wrote: »
    I let Villain fire since I thought that if I raised I might scare Villain away since Villain could fire with an Ace, Jack, 9, or a worse King

    Think about what the other cards need to be for these holdings to be true. What naked jack does this player have? J6? What worse king could they have? K8? These holdings are very unlikely from OOP in a 3 bet pot, so your range assessment can be troublesome.

  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 579 ✭✭✭
    Akashic wrote: »
    This is exactly what you want to do. If you suspect your opponent will fire, you need to let him and call. Sometimes it blows up, but that's part of the fun.

    This is not a terrible post, and whoever flagged it is misunderstanding the purpose of that button.

    We can all dig deeper, and perhaps find some other possible courses of action - but the base logic here is perfectly sound.
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Why calling with TP + OESD on such board ? Do you really think V has that many worst hands to bluff with that TP can win enough of the time ?

    During the heat of the moment, I thought that Villain would do this with a worse K. During that session, I was a bit fed up with not getting value out of my made hands so I was blindly thinking about getting value from this combo draw since Villain was doing all of the betting. I got a little bit too happy when I saw that I had a combo draw and treated the hand as if I had a monster thinking that Villain probably having a worse King without realizing that this was a 3bet pot. In hindsight, I can see that Villain had a lot of two pair combos that I can bluff out with raising along with Villain calling the raise with JT, JJ, and QJ. If what I am saying is valid, is it better to shove on the flop or the turn and why? (I am guessing because Villain had many two pair combos, it is probably better to shove the flop while the SPR is higher?)
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    edited April 11
    Yosh wrote: »
    Akashic wrote: »
    This is exactly what you want to do. If you suspect your opponent will fire, you need to let him and call. Sometimes it blows up, but that's part of the fun.

    This is not a terrible post, and whoever flagged it is misunderstanding the purpose of that button.

    We can all dig deeper, and perhaps find some other possible courses of action - but the base logic here is perfectly sound.

    I understand someone got butthurt that I flagged a post and I agree - I shouldn't have. That's not what the flag button is for. But yes: The post I was quoting was a terrible post. The base logic here is perfectly unsound and I've explained why. The best thing people did for me to get me out of micros hell was be hard on me, critical, and pound me over the head for faulty logic. If you don't like that approach, online poker's going to be a tough world for you.

    You need to play aggressive and go big early with stacks from $2-$10. You need to build the pot in a way that on the flop/turn you're repping nut combos and can bluff effectively, or you actually have nut combos and you're looking to get stacks in. At these stakes, with these players, and the rake in place - shuffling around in 20-40bb pots is just not the way to go. You want to be playing for stacks as often as possible and letting your big hands realize their full equity.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11
    Joseph F wrote: »
    Yosh wrote: »
    Akashic wrote: »
    This is exactly what you want to do. If you suspect your opponent will fire, you need to let him and call. Sometimes it blows up, but that's part of the fun.

    This is not a terrible post, and whoever flagged it is misunderstanding the purpose of that button.

    We can all dig deeper, and perhaps find some other possible courses of action - but the base logic here is perfectly sound.

    I understand someone got butthurt that I flagged a post and I agree - I shouldn't have. That's not what the flag button is for. But yes: The post I was quoting was a terrible post. The base logic here is perfectly unsound and I've explained why. The best thing people did for me to get me out of micros hell was be hard on me, critical, and pound me over the head for faulty logic. If you don't like that approach, online poker's going to be a tough world for you.

    You need to play aggressive and go big early with stacks from $2-$10. You need to build the pot in a way that on the flop/turn you're repping nut combos and can bluff effectively, or you actually have nut combos and you're looking to get stacks in. At these stakes, with these players, and the rake in place - shuffling around in 20-40bb pots is just not the way to go. You want to be playing for stacks as often as possible and letting your big hands realize their full equity.

    There are some other things here that we need to consider. Villain is leading into Hero in a 3b pot and granted I would expect ranges to be wider than a usual 3b pot in a BvB situation but ranges are still much more narrow than a single raised pot. Villain's lead is repping the strongest parts of his range: all 2 pair combos, TT, and AJ. While we do block AJ, and J9, we also block some weaker hands that we want Villain to barrel off with (QJ and JT). We aren't anywhere near the top of our range but we have a strong enough hand to call down. We have to think about our entire range and not just mash it because we have equity.
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 579 ✭✭✭
    edited April 12
    Joseph F wrote: »
    Yosh wrote: »
    Akashic wrote: »
    This is exactly what you want to do. If you suspect your opponent will fire, you need to let him and call. Sometimes it blows up, but that's part of the fun.

    This is not a terrible post, and whoever flagged it is misunderstanding the purpose of that button.

    We can all dig deeper, and perhaps find some other possible courses of action - but the base logic here is perfectly sound.

    I understand someone got butthurt that I flagged a post and I agree - I shouldn't have. That's not what the flag button is for. But yes: The post I was quoting was a terrible post. The base logic here is perfectly unsound and I've explained why. The best thing people did for me to get me out of micros hell was be hard on me, critical, and pound me over the head for faulty logic. If you don't like that approach, online poker's going to be a tough world for you.

    You need to play aggressive and go big early with stacks from $2-$10. You need to build the pot in a way that on the flop/turn you're repping nut combos and can bluff effectively, or you actually have nut combos and you're looking to get stacks in. At these stakes, with these players, and the rake in place - shuffling around in 20-40bb pots is just not the way to go. You want to be playing for stacks as often as possible and letting your big hands realize their full equity.

    @Joseph F - the only thing I need to do is call out bullshit attacks when I see them. OP stated that he believed a raise would scare off a leading range that included the nuts/near nuts and some other weak holdings. @Akashic agreed that facing this type of range, calling in position was a fine play, even acknowledging that sometimes OP will get burnt. There is nothing at all terrible about this response. A fine reply. Is it the only or best way to play it? Hard to say. That depends on the Hero's strategy and his many many assumptions. Stating that any hand needs to be played a specific way, come hell or high water, is simply ignorant of what is happening under the hood. Get down off your runaway wooden rocking horse and think it through.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    Yosh wrote: »
    Stating that any hand needs to be played a specific way, come hell or high water, is simply ignorant of what is happening under the hood.

    No problem and I apologize. You're absolutely right: I'm clearly ignorant of what is happening under the hood at 4NL.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    Joseph F wrote: »
    Yosh wrote: »
    Akashic wrote: »
    This is exactly what you want to do. If you suspect your opponent will fire, you need to let him and call. Sometimes it blows up, but that's part of the fun.

    This is not a terrible post, and whoever flagged it is misunderstanding the purpose of that button.

    We can all dig deeper, and perhaps find some other possible courses of action - but the base logic here is perfectly sound.

    I understand someone got butthurt that I flagged a post and I agree - I shouldn't have. That's not what the flag button is for. But yes: The post I was quoting was a terrible post. The base logic here is perfectly unsound and I've explained why. The best thing people did for me to get me out of micros hell was be hard on me, critical, and pound me over the head for faulty logic. If you don't like that approach, online poker's going to be a tough world for you.

    You need to play aggressive and go big early with stacks from $2-$10. You need to build the pot in a way that on the flop/turn you're repping nut combos and can bluff effectively, or you actually have nut combos and you're looking to get stacks in. At these stakes, with these players, and the rake in place - shuffling around in 20-40bb pots is just not the way to go. You want to be playing for stacks as often as possible and letting your big hands realize their full equity.

    There are some other things here that we need to consider. Villain is leading into Hero in a 3b pot and granted I would expect ranges to be wider than a usual 3b pot in a BvB situation but ranges are still much more narrow than a single raised pot. Villain's lead is repping the strongest parts of his range: all 2 pair combos, TT, and AJ. While we do block AJ, and J9, we also block some weaker hands that we want Villain to barrel off with (QJ and JT). We aren't anywhere near the top of our range but we have a strong enough hand to call down. We have to think about our entire range and not just mash it because we have equity.

    It's not a matter of saying "we have a strong hand - mash it", it's a matter of playing for less than 100bb's effective against a fish. Our hand is strong enough to play for stacks here and if he shows us one of the combos we don't want to see, great - we take a note and move on. You and I both know that the sooner you decide you want to play for stacks with a hand, the better and it's better to be the one shoving than having to tank and contemplate what to do about villain's shove.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12
    Joseph F wrote: »
    Ninjah wrote: »
    Joseph F wrote: »
    Yosh wrote: »
    Akashic wrote: »
    This is exactly what you want to do. If you suspect your opponent will fire, you need to let him and call. Sometimes it blows up, but that's part of the fun.

    This is not a terrible post, and whoever flagged it is misunderstanding the purpose of that button.

    We can all dig deeper, and perhaps find some other possible courses of action - but the base logic here is perfectly sound.

    I understand someone got butthurt that I flagged a post and I agree - I shouldn't have. That's not what the flag button is for. But yes: The post I was quoting was a terrible post. The base logic here is perfectly unsound and I've explained why. The best thing people did for me to get me out of micros hell was be hard on me, critical, and pound me over the head for faulty logic. If you don't like that approach, online poker's going to be a tough world for you.

    You need to play aggressive and go big early with stacks from $2-$10. You need to build the pot in a way that on the flop/turn you're repping nut combos and can bluff effectively, or you actually have nut combos and you're looking to get stacks in. At these stakes, with these players, and the rake in place - shuffling around in 20-40bb pots is just not the way to go. You want to be playing for stacks as often as possible and letting your big hands realize their full equity.

    There are some other things here that we need to consider. Villain is leading into Hero in a 3b pot and granted I would expect ranges to be wider than a usual 3b pot in a BvB situation but ranges are still much more narrow than a single raised pot. Villain's lead is repping the strongest parts of his range: all 2 pair combos, TT, and AJ. While we do block AJ, and J9, we also block some weaker hands that we want Villain to barrel off with (QJ and JT). We aren't anywhere near the top of our range but we have a strong enough hand to call down. We have to think about our entire range and not just mash it because we have equity.

    It's not a matter of saying "we have a strong hand - mash it", it's a matter of playing for less than 100bb's effective against a fish. Our hand is strong enough to play for stacks here and if he shows us one of the combos we don't want to see, great - we take a note and move on. You and I both know that the sooner you decide you want to play for stacks with a hand, the better and it's better to be the one shoving than having to tank and contemplate what to do about villain's shove.

    I understand what you're saying but you can't ignore ranges just to make a decision easier on yourself. Villain crosses the leverage point on the turn. We can shove and let his bluffs fold and get owned by many combos that have us beat, or we call and let his bluffs continue. Our hand doesn't need or want to enter polarization. Villain got lucky on the river, but Hero played it just fine.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    edited April 12
    Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software - http://drivehud.com

    NL Holdem $0.25(BB)
    HJ ($21.89) [VPIP: 26.2% | PFR: 11.9% | AGG: 18.2% | 3-Bet: 11.8% | Hands: 43]
    CO ($37.55) [VPIP: 36.5% | PFR: 22.1% | AGG: 36.7% | 3-Bet: 7.3% | Hands: 109]
    BTN ($56.47) [VPIP: 29.3% | PFR: 22.8% | AGG: 27.8% | 3-Bet: 12.3% | Hands: 169]
    HERO ($26.02) [VPIP: 24.7% | PFR: 16% | AGG: 27.5% | 3-Bet: 4.5% | Hands: 19180]
    BB ($17.08) [VPIP: 49.4% | PFR: 18.5% | AGG: 41.4% | 3-Bet: 6.1% | Hands: 83]
    UTG ($25) [VPIP: 22.7% | PFR: 17% | AGG: 29.8% | 3-Bet: 3.4% | Hands: 144]

    Dealt to Hero: Kh As

    UTG Folds, HJ Raises To $0.50, CO Raises To $1.39, BTN Calls $1.39, HERO Raises To $8.81, BB Folds, HJ Folds, CO Calls $7.42, BTN Folds

    Hero SPR on Flop: [0.87 effective]
    Flop ($19.76): 4h Ah Ks
    HERO Checks, CO Bets $28.74 (allin), HERO Calls $17.21 (allin)

    Turn ($65.71): 4h Ah Ks 4c

    River ($65.71): 4h Ah Ks 4c Th

    CO shows: Td 9d

    HERO wins: $51.18

    BoOoOoOm ... :Kh :As
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software - http://drivehud.com

    NL Holdem $0.25(BB)
    BB ($28.12) [VPIP: 19.5% | PFR: 15.9% | AGG: 39.3% | 3-Bet: 6.6% | Hands: 224]
    UTG ($48.93) [VPIP: 72.9% | PFR: 39% | AGG: 33.6% | 3-Bet: 5.7% | Hands: 124]
    HJ ($14.64) [VPIP: 39% | PFR: 4.9% | AGG: 54.5% | 3-Bet: 5.9% | Hands: 41]
    HERO ($29.06) [VPIP: 24.7% | PFR: 16% | AGG: 27.5% | 3-Bet: 4.5% | Hands: 19180]
    BTN ($25.22) [VPIP: 24.6% | PFR: 21.4% | AGG: 30.4% | 3-Bet: 6% | Hands: 128]
    SB ($9.36) [VPIP: 16.7% | PFR: 14.4% | AGG: 40.3% | 3-Bet: 6.5% | Hands: 219]

    Dealt to Hero: 9d 9c

    UTG Raises To $0.85, HJ Calls $0.85, HERO Calls $0.85, BTN Calls $0.85, SB Folds, BB Folds

    Hero SPR on Flop: [3.68 effective]
    Flop ($3.75): 8c Ah 9h
    UTG Checks, HJ Bets $1.78 (Rem. Stack: 12.01), HERO Raises To $6.56 (Rem. Stack: 21.65), BTN Folds, UTG Folds, HJ Raises To $13.79 (allin), HERO Raises To $28.21 (allin)

    Turn ($45.75): 8c Ah 9h 8h

    River ($45.75): 8c Ah 9h 8h 9s

    HJ shows: Qd Ac

    HERO wins: $29.59

    :9d :9c :9h :9s


    What almost got me there was how UTG opened to $.85c and not the baseline $.75c. That extra $0.10 got me contemplating the price on my cold call.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 470 ✭✭✭
    Joseph F wrote: »
    The best thing people did for me to get me out of micros hell was be hard on me, critical, and pound me over the head for faulty logic. If you don't like that approach, online poker's going to be a tough world for you.

    It is not up to you to decide for everyone how they should learn poker.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Joseph F wrote: »
    The best thing people did for me to get me out of micros hell was be hard on me, critical, and pound me over the head for faulty logic. If you don't like that approach, online poker's going to be a tough world for you.

    It is not up to you to decide for everyone how they should learn poker.

    I have enjoyed reading your posts and I like your passion for the game. That's why I'm posting any advice in the first place. You're absolutely correct in that the way I learn - and continue to learn the game - is not for everyone. If there's ever anything I can do to help, don't hesitate to let me know.

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