This hand has been annoying me for a while...

ElzammoElzammo Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
My first post so please benice!

I think I did the right thing eventually, but i think my action preflop wasn't the best.

I have JJ small blind (can't remember suit but no hearts)
Small Tourney. Blinds 500/1000 lots of Passive players and nits. A bit of background - I am the only female consistently at this game, we play once a week, small tourneys, usually about 20 runners. Good and bad players but mostly very passive, TAGS and lots of nits. I am more aggressive than most. Deep stacks, I have about 50BB
Stacks are still pretty high.
UTG (nit) has about 30BB (smallest stack)
UTG calls, 3 more limpers (fairly standard).
I raise to 4000 (I probably should've raised more)
UTG calls, everyone else folds

Flop:
:8h :5c :Kh

I bet out 8000, villain thinks and then pushes all in 26000

I probably shouldve paid more attention to his stack and considering his UTG limp and then call of my raise, in hindsight it seems like an easy fold. But it was still tough....

He later tells me he had KQo.... not sure if I believe him.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12
    Please note that I'm no tourney player tho
    Elzammo wrote: »
    I raise to 4000 (I probably should've raised more)

    This is the issue. By raising "only" to 4'000, you don't assure that ALL limpers - who still can have like unsure unsuited broadways, low PP, low SC/suited gappers - will fold. Plus you're SB, meaning if they flat, they play IP against you. But will ALL of them fold for 3 BB more ?

    IMHO either you can flat yourself and play postflop with a nice PP. You also decrease the risk you take from SB and protect your range, which is always good.

    Alternative would be to raise bigger to put some real pressure on limpers. But if you do raise bigger (let's say to 8'500/8,5bb), you should be ready to play for stacks. If a Villain limp/raise, folding a hand strong like JJ would be a mistake and considering the low expected SPR/OOP/no initiative, flatting would be terrible too; so if you do raise, you should be ready for a 4bet-shove. Which is maybe not the best way to follow when playing a tourney with so much chips - it's a very bad risk/boni ratio.
    Elzammo wrote: »
    Flop:
    :8h :5c :Kh

    I bet out 8000

    Flop is rather good for your range. Still it's somehow connected, so a bluff should be a double barrel bluff (which is then for stacks) against 76s, :HEART: , etc.

    Now pot is 10'500 and you bet 8'000 with 34'000 eff remaining. This is way too big IMHO. You can have the same FE by betting 3'500 I think - same effect, less risks.

    Last but not least: why betting JJ ??
    JJ has a ton of SDV. I could see an underbet to may low PP and draw pay, but then... I don't want to bet/fold JJ. Villain shouldn't have TP very often, and when he has, it would usually be a meh TP who will also prefer to go for a cheap showdown (like K9s) since we expect V to open KQ/AK (at least KQs/AKos) - and we block KJ.
    By betting JJ, you turn this good hand into a bluff / semi-bluff hand. But it's a rather vulnerable hands against nut FD, over cards, combo draws... It's not a hand strong enough - not enough equity - to survive too much heat, and you would be force to fold a too big share of equity. And you can really count of JJ being a blocker to justify it either (like like having AQ to block TPTK/TP2K and ev. nut FD, for example).
    For these reasons, I prefer to check with JJ (and check-call if I expect V to be able to bluff stab).
    Elzammo wrote: »
    villain thinks and then pushes all in 26000
    When V raises, it's an easy fold - Hero's bet was a bet/fold, right ?
    Still, as said, it's a painful to fold that much equity.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,755 -
    edited April 12
    Elzammo wrote: »
    Flop:
    :8h :5c :Kh

    I bet out 8000,

    Give a clear answer to this question:

    "Why are you betting JJ?"

    Does the answer to this question apply to most other hands in your range?

    In other words, I see no reason to bet this hand that does not apply to every other hand in your range (some form of "good for my range", "I c-bet 100..."

    There are two reasons to bet in hold'em:

    1.) To make the pot bigger in case you win
    2.) To deny equity

    The first implies that you have decent equity WHEN CALLED. There are some draws that will call, but there is a huge percentage of calling range (especially among a wide field) that have you down to two outs. Against two players, you might have one out because you find a King and a Flush draw.

    You are denying equity to draws, but they have robust equity, their equity holds up against a presumably strong range. You are making the pot bigger for them, and they are indifferent to a larger pot since their equity would be strong against even a set. They might even jam on you.
    (Source: they jammed on you)

    This is a small hand, it deserves a small pot. You are making a big pot with a small hand. Don't do that! :)



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  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 71 ✭✭
    I may be alone, but I like the sizing preflop. You deny equity while not investing too large a percentage of your stack putting you in weird spots post flop. For me the mistake is betting the flop. I probably just check this back. In these passive small buy in tourneys, I have seen players limp hands like AKo, AQ, KQ, 77-TT. Based on that, I would just check call flop and evaluate the turn. If an ace or hearts come, and he wants to shut down, bomb the river. Otherwise, shut down and fold to continued aggression.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12
    you don't deny any equity at all by laying 3000/8000 to the BB and/or the first limper, never mind the rest once one is induced to call.

    The fact that several limp folded, now being offered 3000/11000 shows the poverty of their play, but isn't really something to bank on as a strategy.
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 71 ✭✭
    edited April 12
    persuadeo wrote: »
    you don't deny any equity at all by laying 3000/8500 to the BB and/or the first limper, never mind the rest once one is induced to call.

    The fact that several limp folded, now being offered 3000/11500 shows the poverty of their play, but isn't really something to bank on as a strategy.

    Not sure if you've read the latest Janda book, but one thing from that book that I strongly agree with is that our raise doesn't have to get folds on that exact street. The open mainly uncaps our range, while villains are all capped. This particular run out wasn't favorable but I do like the preflop sizing for a tournament hand.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,070 -
    osirus0830 wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    you don't deny any equity at all by laying 3000/8500 to the BB and/or the first limper, never mind the rest once one is induced to call.

    The fact that several limp folded, now being offered 3000/11500 shows the poverty of their play, but isn't really something to bank on as a strategy.

    Not sure if you've read the latest Janda book, but one thing from that book that I strongly agree with is that our raise doesn't have to get folds on that exact street. The open mainly uncaps our range, while villains are all capped. This particular run out wasn't favorable but I do like the preflop sizing for a tournament hand.

    Sure, but in this case being in SB getting calls (particularly multiple ones) is not at all desirable.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • ElzammoElzammo Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited April 13
    This is the issue. By raising "only" to 4'000, you don't assure that ALL limpers - who still can have like unsure unsuited broadways, low PP, low SC/suited gappers - will fold. Plus you're SB, meaning if they flat, they play IP against you. But will ALL of them fold for 3 BB more ?

    Totally agree and I kicked myself later that I didn't raise something more like 7500-8000, considering the amount of limpers. I think UTG might have folded to a higher raise. And replaying the hand now I am surprised the limpers folded at all - these guys seriously limp in with any 2 cards....
    Give a clear answer to this question:

    "Why are you betting JJ?"

    I think I have gotten in a bad habit in this particular game, of betting out if I think I can get the others out of the pot. I know JJ wasn't particularly strong and I knew UTG is really really tight. JJ is also a hand that often gets me in an awkward spot so I think I just wanted to win the pot there. I know that is not the best play, but it is a move that often wins against the guys who play this particular game. UTG never chases and will pretty much fold unless he thinks he has the nuts. Which goes on to another comment:
    Now pot is 10'500 and you bet 8'000 with 34'000 eff remaining. This is way too big IMHO. You can have the same FE by betting 3'500 I think - same effect, less risks.

    I think I am answering my own question here though and you are right. A smaller bet would've have saved me money, told me where I was at (I think he pushes regardless) and if he had nothing he would've folded to a smaller bet. Definite lesson learned.

    Loving all the feedback, I am really trying to open up my game and think more about my decisions, so getting this sort of feedback is awesome. Thanks!

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