How to be more deceptive?

TonyTwoCheeksTonyTwoCheeks Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
This is $1-$1 home game with typical $5 button straddle. My VPIP is about 20% and I'm , by far, the tightest at the table. Furthermore, the good players at this game know this. I'm not seeking advice on the hand presented. But I'm want to consider other lines so I can change up my play against the solid regulars in the game. Some players are starting to make exploitable folds against me.

Hero stack: $419
Villain stack: $450

*** PRE-FLOP ***

UTG: limps $1
UTG+1 (Hero): raises $12
Lo-Jack: calls $12
Hi-Jack (Villain): calls $12 with :8h:9h
Button: calls $12
Small Blind: folds
Big Blind: folds
UTG: folds
Pot Size: $51

*** FLOP *** :4h:Jh:Ts

UTG: bets $30 (59% pot)
Lo-Jack: folds
Hero: calls $30
Button: folds
Pot Size: $111

*** TURN *** :4h:Jh:Ts:7d

UTG: bets $75 (68% pot)
Hi-Jack: raises to $200
UTG: raises all-in ($377 effective)
Hi-Jack: calls
UTG shows :Qd:Qc
Pot Size: $865

*** RIVER *** :4h:Jh:Ts:7d:Kc

Easy win. Villain had been running hot, had a false sense of invincibility, and I figured him for another big pair. I've posted this hand on other forums switching the roles where I'm playing UTG and most responses say that the Hi-Jack is very face up (several guessed :8h:9h, :Ah:Th or :Th:7h) and that UTG should fold. Are there other lines I could have taken to be more deceptive or are the reversed implied odds to high? Draws for bigger flushes and bigger straights are present.

Answers

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    Are there other lines I could have taken to be more deceptive or are the reversed implied odds to high? Draws for bigger flushes and bigger straights are present.
    Come on... dig into these scenarii yourself ! Learning by reviewing hands means YOU do that off table. You can then present your doubts and question to the forum.

    If you want me to hold your hand: Play with Equilab/Flopzilla and ask yourself ... why not 3bet preflop? Why not raise flop ? Why not call turn ? What if turn doesn't complete your draw?


    PS: I think you misswrite who is Villain and Hero. Hero is HJ with 98s right, and not UTG+1 ? (Strange otherwise to see Villain's hand way before Hero's hand)
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    The questions that I ask myself when reviewing lines are usually along the lines of what hands in my range would I play similarly on this board? How many combos of value do I play like this? How many combos of bluffs do I play like this? Am I unbalanced, ie overweight with value or bluffs?

    Based on you waiting until the turn to raise, there aren't a lot of semi bluffs that you can have aside from the nut flush draw, maybe :AH::7H: . I think that by waiting until the turn to raise, you're too value heavy, consider raising the flop sometimes. Only scenario in which I wouldn't raise the flop is if villain was aggressive and would shove his over pair.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    osirus0830 wrote: »
    there aren't a lot of semi bluffs that you can have aside from the nut flush draw, maybe :AH::7H:
    9c8c ? 8h7h ? QhTh ? AhTh ? As4s (if not 3bet) ? 9s8s ? KsQs (if not 3bet) ? etc etc.

    Open flopzilla and try yourself. See what do you have, when you could raise, how you expect V to react, how is your equity looking if you get action.
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    osirus0830 wrote: »
    there aren't a lot of semi bluffs that you can have aside from the nut flush draw, maybe :AH::7H:
    9c8c ? 8h7h ? QhTh ? AhTh ? As4s (if not 3bet) ? 9s8s ? KsQs (if not 3bet) ? etc etc.

    Open flopzilla and try yourself. See what do you have, when you could raise, how you expect V to react, how is your equity looking if you get action.

    You know villains holding so some of the hands that you listed would be bluffs only after you have knowledge of opponent's hole cards.

    All combos with a ten in them would not likely be viewed as a semi bluff imo. If you are able to put villain on exactly an over pair then heroes cards don't even matter because he can airball bluff any scare card.

    IMO, all 98 combos are not bluffs on the turn. As4s should be 3 bet or folded preflop imo. That makes the only candidates for semi bluffs on the turn 8h7h, Ah7h, KQs.

    If you're following weasels advice and bluffing your nut draws on the flop, that would mean that all of the KQs combos and the Ah7h combo would have been raised on the flop. That leaves hero with only 8h7h as a good semi-bluffing combo on the turn.

    The only way that I see hero not being too value heavy when raising the turn is if he is following a mixed strategy and is waiting to raise some combos of KQs and nut flush draws until the turn and river.
  • TonyTwoCheeksTonyTwoCheeks Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    forum (noun) - an assembly or meeting place for the discussion of questions of public interest

    Red, I'm not looking for answers from you...I'm looking for a discussion. I know I posted a hand but my larger concern is how to adjust my game and stay ahead of my opponents who may be identifying my normal game. This is a different problem for me. Being that I don't live near a casino almost every face in a casino is a new face. This home game has a short list of regulars and I've never played in a home game long enough to get patterned.

    Don't be so presumptuous that I hadn't already looked at Equilab. If you look at my previous post regarding AK frequencies, you'll see I do off-table work before posting. Frankly, I'm disappointed in both threads. Perhaps the points I'm pondering don't lend themselves to this type of setting.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    You are asking question where just looking at all your action you can answer yourself by thinking about alternative action (or sizing when bet/raise). This is basic hand breaking questions: looking at alternatives... which I even pointed out explicitly in my 1st post:
    Red wrote: »
    why not 3bet preflop? Why not raise flop ? Why not call turn ?
    I don't want to be patronizing and sorry if I look condescending, but this is the only way to improve... for you to dig into these questions. But now if you don't want to answer to these questions and do your homework, then it cannot be helped...

    The answers to these questions will create an interesting discussion... the one you're looking for!
    Once you're able to write down here - for example - : "I called 98s preflop because of [on-table reason(s) or former off-table strategy], but considering [off-table argument] and [other off-table argument], I think I should have raise to [bet sizing] $ with the intention of [Hero's action] in case Villain 4-bet".
    Good for you : you then have put some critical thoughts into your hand and how to improve your game.
    Interesting for us: we have "meat on bone" ("Fleisch am Knoch") to eat, which demand critical thoughts and arguments about your play and your analysis, to then feed you with a consequent feedback.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,827 ✭✭✭✭✭
    UTG: limps $1
    UTG+1 (Hero): raises $12
    Lo-Jack: calls
    Hi-Jack (Villain): calls

    UTG: bets
    Lo-Jack: folds
    Hero: calls
    Button: folds

    UTG: bets
    Hi-Jack: raises
    UTG: raises all-in
    Hi-Jack: calls

    You might want to check that because none of it makes sense.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,793 -
    Play nice everyone.

    @Red is a fine poker player and good friend. I assure you his heart is in the right place, @tonyTwoCheeks, and that he is trying to push all readers of this forum in the right direction.

    Our readers do not tend to research the poster's other threads before responding, so if there is off-table work that you did, it is best to mention it in the thread itself. At your current 17 post count there is little chance that your reputation as a thoughtful student of the game has (yet) been established.

    Keep posting well formatted, easy to read threads like this and you will do fine.



    You originally asked about being more deceptive.

    My question is "Why?"

    Your opponents seem to deceive themselves.

    I just did a session of $2-$5 with Ross, were playing against a table of clueless players and were able to predict each other's actions and holdings quite well. Does not matter, since the opponents were gladly stacking in $1300+ with TPTK on boards where sets fear to tread and calling off with nut flushes on paired boards proudly proclaiming "I have the nuts!" (They were... mistaken, but got me excited that I was about to win the BBJ with my quad Jacks vs a SF)

    There is a time for deception, but it is not a goal, but means to a goal.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,827 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    [Keep posting well formatted, easy to read threads like this

    I have to take issue with that :) The action is a complete clusterfudge. No offense @TonyTwoCheeks , it sounds like this wasn't the original action and you edited it for your other forum post or whatever.

    Preflop Hero is UTG+1. On the flop UTG, who folded preflop, now donk bets. Hero has now moved to the Hijack spot, replacing the primary villain in the hand, who perhaps has gone to take a smoke break and lets Hero play over his stack. On the turn, the dealer still has not noticed that UTG has no cards and he is allowed to bet again. The Hijack has now returned from his break to replace Hero, who's cards were presumably mucked by the dealer when he saw there was no one in his seat.

    If OP has a better description of the action I'd love to hear it.

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