KK UTG

NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
edited April 13 in Live Poker Hands
1/2 NL. Effective stacks about $250. UTG with :Ks :Kc I open to $12. Folds to SB who 3 bets to $25. BB folds and I 4 bet to $75. SB calls.

Flop is :4s :8s :6c

SB immediately jams it all in for about $180.

What is going on here? I have to think flopped set? Or AA? In my experience I have not seen a player all in bluff at all. ..especially not on the flop. I have called several all ins in recent weeks with 2nd best hand and they have had it every time.

Thoughts?

Best Answers

  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    Red wrote: »
    Why 4bet?

    Premium hand and want to build a pot
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    edited April 13 Accepted Answer
    Thank you for your input.

    I guess I should have also said that a 4 bet would help me narrow the SB range based on what he does.

    To answer your questions.

    I think V is 3 betting with 10+ AKs, and maybe AKo

    My 4 bet range is pretty much KK and AA, maybe QQ depending on how well I know the player. I don't 4 bet often so I don't really have a 4 bet bluffing range. I just don't think I am a strong enough player to play post flop with a 4 bet preflop bluff.

    Based on my initial thoughts I don't think V is folding any of those preflop holdings and would 5 bet KK and AA. I may be wrong about the 5 bet AA though. I know I would 5 bet AA in this spot but V is a bit tighter I think than me.

    I'm not sure if I need to preflop raise to play for stacks or not. I think so as V is somewhat tight.

    So based on all these assumptions V would have QQ,JJ or TT right? I just don't think this player is capable of shoving with those hands which leaves me with AA.

    Not sure how I would have played it had BB called the $25. I think I probably would have done the same thing. 4bet to $75...or maybe 4bet to $100. At that point there would have been $62 in there and I would have been happy winning it right there.


    Thanks for your time and comments. I have been playing for a long time but just recently started studying and doing hand reviews and a lot of these concepts/thought processes are brand new to me.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    Oh, I also have another hand history call AA in the big blind. I would mind your thoughts on that one if you have time... :)

    Thank you

Answers

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    I guess I should have also said that a 4 bet would help me narrow the SB range based on what he does.
    Betting/raising to see where you are at is the worst reason to bet/raise
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    NTD12 wrote: »
    I guess I should have also said that a 4 bet would help me narrow the SB range based on what he does.
    Betting/raising to see where you are at is the worst reason to bet/raise

    So it sounds like You think calling here is the best option? Can you please explain why?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15
    Your reasoning isn't really consistent. You have a range for him of "10+ AKs, and maybe AKo", and then you think he must have flopped a set. So one of those reads must be wrong.

    As the size of the pot increases and SPR decreases, the amount we worry decreases. In fact, one non-native English speaking player I know likes to say "Just go all in, no more worry!". Point being, at an SPR of 1, we're beyond overanalyzing and we just call.

    If we want to analyze more, then we ought to ask why we would think hands such as JJ or QQ might be a 3-bet and then just call preflop. Are they expecting only to flop a set with these hands? In other words, did they think they were ahead until you 4-bet, and then turn their hand into any old pocket pair that needed to flop a set to win? It's possible, but another option with these hands is the desire to flop an overpair. With 55, they know they're not flopping an overpair. Hands like TT-QQ are transitional hands that they think they might win 2 ways - by either flopping a set or waiting to make sure an overcard doesn't come, so they can't lose to AK. If either happens, they shove. Which might or might not be reasonable in an SPR 1 pot and depending on what range that you 4-bet with. For example, see Hand 1 here.
    https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/12349/couple-hands-against-a-tag#latest

    By the way, trying to flop a set to beat you when you raised as much as $75 with this stack size is a bad strategy on your opponent's part, and yet I see a lot of players doing it anyway. I am happy to play this game with them all night long. In other words, you can accept getting stacked here by a set as long as your opponent is willing to play this way for the rest of your lives, as you'll profit long term.

    It's also possible they have AA, but their preflop and postflop play would then be inconsistent and odd. Why just call preflop and then instadonkshove postflop? That doesn't make much sense. Not saying players never do things that make no sense, but we have to try to reason through this.

    Personally I think you'll be up against too many hands you beat. One argument against calling is that you hold the :KS: in your hand, ruling out a shove by your opponent with :AS: :KS: . For example, if you held :KD: :KH: and your opponent held :AS: :KS: then he's probably doing the right thing by shoving if he thinks he has any fold equity at all (for example you might have AKs yourself). This is nearly a coinflip situation and he'd absolutely have to call if you shoved so he might as well do it and maybe gain some fold equity. Based on the fact that you even posted this hand tells me he might actually have some fold equity against KK as well! While it would be better if you didn't have the :KS:, you still can't fold.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    NTD12 wrote: »
    I guess I should have also said that a 4 bet would help me narrow the SB range based on what he does.
    Betting/raising to see where you are at is the worst reason to bet/raise

    So it sounds like You think calling here is the best option? Can you please explain why?

    He's not saying just calling the preflop 3 bet is best, he's saying if you 4 bet, it's for a different reason than "find out where I'm at". Your original answer was better - "premium hand and want to build a pot". Red was being a little harsh saying this was incorrect - apparently he was looking for some deeper thinking, but it's not wrong at face value.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    NTD12 wrote: »
    I guess I should have also said that a 4 bet would help me narrow the SB range based on what he does.
    Betting/raising to see where you are at is the worst reason to bet/raise

    So it sounds like You think calling here is the best option? Can you please explain why?

    He's not saying just calling the preflop 3 bet is best, he's saying if you 4 bet, it's for a different reason than "find out where I'm at". Your original answer was better - "premium hand and want to build a pot". Red was being a little harsh saying this was incorrect - apparently he was looking for some deeper thinking, but it's not wrong at face value.

    Jeffnc got me ;)

    After some discussion (much time ago) with @kagey , I adopted his point of view and 4bet at low stakes is not a tool I use - for strategical reasons. Only in wild home game, deep stack games or playing mid stakes (2/5).

    Still, I don't like to give the answer; this isn't interesting and doesn't help studying players.
    Way better is to point a situation / issue and let you ( @NTD12 ) try to see what, why, how.
    Which, yeah, can sound harsch here and there. (Good for you you didn't know kagey; I'm a soft kitty compared to him :) ; he trash a lot, but he is very good and I learn a lot thanks to him)
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Thank you for your comments and insight. It was very helpful. Like I said I am still learning.

    Oddly enough I just played a very similar hand the other night and I think this thread definitely helped me in that hand. I am in the process of putting it all together and should and posting...we'll see how the work afternoon goes.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    You've just started a very long way with a lot of pain.

    Keep it up!
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    jeffnc wrote: »
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    NTD12 wrote: »
    I guess I should have also said that a 4 bet would help me narrow the SB range based on what he does.
    Betting/raising to see where you are at is the worst reason to bet/raise

    So it sounds like You think calling here is the best option? Can you please explain why?

    He's not saying just calling the preflop 3 bet is best, he's saying if you 4 bet, it's for a different reason than "find out where I'm at". Your original answer was better - "premium hand and want to build a pot". Red was being a little harsh saying this was incorrect - apparently he was looking for some deeper thinking, but it's not wrong at face value.

    Jeffnc got me ;)

    After some discussion (much time ago) with @kagey , I adopted his point of view and 4bet at low stakes is not a tool I use - for strategical reasons. Only in wild home game, deep stack games or playing mid stakes (2/5).

    Still, I don't like to give the answer; this isn't interesting and doesn't help studying players.
    Way better is to point a situation / issue and let you ( @NTD12 ) try to see what, why, how.
    Which, yeah, can sound harsch here and there. (Good for you you didn't know kagey; I'm a soft kitty compared to him :) ; he trash a lot, but he is very good and I learn a lot thanks to him)

    Thank you. Now I think I see where you were going but not sure...lol. Like I said, new and trying to figure this out. I still get caught up in the excitement of getting a big hand and often don't think it out too much.

    I think in the next one I post I thought it out better.

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