Need Help Understanding C-Bet Article

gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 71 ✭✭
So I don’t know where to put this thread but I could use some help understanding the second point in this article (the one involving what barreling opportunities do we have). Some examples would be really helpful. Here’s the link to the article: https://redchippoker.com/4-questions-before-c-betting/
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,923 -
    edited April 14
    gl523 wrote: »
    So I don’t know where to put this thread but I could use some help understanding the second point in this article (the one involving what barreling opportunities do we have). Some examples would be really helpful. Here’s the link to the article: https://redchippoker.com/4-questions-before-c-betting/

    Maybe you could quote the specific point you're confused about to save members digging through that article? I'd also suggest providing your own example where you suspect the principle may be in play, asking for confirmation from the forum brains.
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  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 71 ✭✭
    Thank you for the advice. I will gladly do so.

    Here’s the content:
    “The next question we should ask our ourselves, this is probably one of the most important ones, in fact all of these are important but this is probably where my primary focus lies in any C-betting situation. The principle is, which barreling opportunities will we have? We really do not want to just go around C-betting random cards. The first thing we should look at is do we have any good back doors with our holding? Do we have a number of back door flushes that we can barrel? Do we have already a made draw, for example something like a flush draw, or a gut shot, or an open ended straight draw (OESD)? Because if we do have these hands we can basically just go ahead and fire any turn card in the majority of situations. But if we don’t have a direct draw we at least need a hand that can improve to a draw with a decent frequency on the turn. Ideally this is going to be a nut draw, or a second nut draw, it’s not going to be a really, really bad draw.

    Again if you’d like more information on this there’s a previous video, which was made for Red Chip, which is called flop connection nuances. So in general back door draws are good, but not every back door draw is good, there are some really bad back door draws, which are probably better off going in our check folding range. We don’t want to be too much in the situation where we C-bet the flop, we turn a draw, we fire again, we make our draw on the river, we bet, we get shoved on by our opponent and he just has a better draw. Sometimes this will be a cooler situation, especially if we have something like the second nut flush for example. But in other situations if we are just C-betting and barreling really bad draws and we’re consistently getting stacked when our opponent has our draw dominated then this is not really a cooler anymore, this is just us not barrelling very good hands to barrel.”

    Some questions are why do we consider barreling draws and what are some examples of good backdoor draws and some examples of bad backdoor draws? (I’m guessing that backdoor nut flush draw and a backdoor straight with a backdoor flush draw are two good examples while a backdoor low flush draw is a bad example. Am I correct?) Why is it that if we do have a draw, we can fire on any turn card in most situations?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭✭
    gl523 wrote: »
    Some questions are why do we consider barreling draws
    You should always ask 2 questions:
    - WHY are you betting ? (what is your goal)
    - WITH WHAT are you betting? (considering your goal, what part of your range do you bet, and how do you plan to act against a raise and on futur streets). Betting draws too often - or not having a betting range with enough value hands - leads you to bluff too much (and cost you)

    About which draws - in a vacuum, so imperfect answer - : usually we beat to deny equity (to make Villain fold) ; choosing either great draws (which can sustain heat and can sustain a raise) or bad draws (no SDV) to nuttish hands (aim to bet/fold).
    Blockers can help too.

    But again, there is no respond in absolute. You should adapt your strategy (the answer to WHY and WITH WHAT) to each situation you're in.
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 71 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    gl523 wrote: »
    Some questions are why do we consider barreling draws
    You should always ask 2 questions:
    - WHY are you betting ? (what is your goal)
    - WITH WHAT are you betting? (considering your goal, what part of your range do you bet, and how do you plan to act against a raise and on futur streets). Betting draws too often - or not having a betting range with enough value hands - leads you to bluff too much (and cost you)

    About which draws - in a vacuum, so imperfect answer - : usually we beat to deny equity (to make Villain fold) ; choosing either great draws (which can sustain heat and can sustain a raise) or bad draws (no SDV) to nuttish hands (aim to bet/fold).
    Blockers can help too.

    But again, there is no respond in absolute. You should adapt your strategy (the answer to WHY and WITH WHAT) to each situation you're in.

    I understand that one bets to make worse hands call and better hands to fold but I don't understand how draws play a role in either of those two things other than fold equity. You mention having a goal which peaks my curiously. How does one have and execute a goal when it comes to playing a hand? You also mention the caution of betting draws too often. Does this imply that draws are under the category of our bluffing hands in general? I thought that draws had some value since if we make our hand after barreling, we are in a good spot to barrel again. Could you explain more what you mean when you ask the question "With what are you betting?"

    I don't understand the second paragraph at all. Could you explain it again please?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15
    Things are getting muddled here. To answer one of your specific questions, I don't really agree that there are going to be many or any backdoor flush draws that you won't like. In Holdem flushes are usually good, and backdoor flushes especially so, so they can be weak. It does not help that he says things like "Do we have a number of back door flushes..." I have no idea what "number" he could be referring to.

    "Ideally this is going to be a nut draw, or a second nut draw"

    I think this is really reaching a lot for something like a flush draw.

    "it’s not going to be a really, really bad draw."

    It could of course be that he's referring to a bad draw in the sense that you're drawing to a flush on a paired board or a straight on a 2 flush board, I don't know.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,923 -
    I think Adam's general philosophy is to play near-nut draws aggressively and non-nut draws more passively. My guess is a "really bad draw" would be the wrong end of gutters like 65 on a K97.
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