Good or bad shove 8 away from the money

Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
edited April 14 in Tournament Poker Hands
44 players left 8 away from min cash
Blind at 2500/5k/5k
I have 209k on the button
Fold to the hijack who raises to 12.5k with about 380k to start
Cutoff calls he has about 180k
I look down at :Js :Jc
I decide to shove

And villain in the hijack hadn't been super active but definitely not a nit
And cutoff called to many marginal hands

Also note it was a 550 dollar tourney first place was 39k
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  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I'd be more comfortable with it if I had HJ covered, but I think it's fine. My rule of thumb for spots like this is if I take it down pre and add more than 15% to my stack it's reasonable. On your good days you'll get called by an underpair who "put you on AK."

    Your response makes me feel better about my shove.
    HJ thought about it for awhile and reluctantly called
    Cutoff folded.
    HJ had :Ah :Kd flop came kind high and that's all she wrote
  • MTTheroMTThero Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    I don't think I would shove that. I think you are a bit deep to shove there. I think I would 3 bet to about 40k.
  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    MTThero wrote: »
    I don't think I would shove that. I think you are a bit deep to shove there. I think I would 3 bet to about 40k.

    Do you just fold if villain shoves
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm a cash player... but wow, is it really necessary to shove after a single raise and call ?!
    I read some articles saying the new limit to push/fold was 15-20BB, but shoving 83BB after a raise of 5BB seems pretty disproportionate to me
  • MTTheroMTThero Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    edited April 16
    Red wrote: »
    I'm a cash player... but wow, is it really necessary to shove after a single raise and call ?!
    I read some articles saying the new limit to push/fold was 15-20BB, but shoving 83BB after a raise of 5BB seems pretty disproportionate to me

    My standard for shoving in spots like this would be according to the following, I call it the 25/30 guideline. (I think I first read this in one of Daniel Neagreanu's books, however, I'm not sure if he gets credit or he took it from somewhere else)

    If the size of my standard sized raise is more than 30% of the effective stack, I shove. If the size of my standard raise is more than 25% but less than 30%, I can choose to either raise small or shove, whichever best fits the situation. If the raise is less than 25% of the effective stack, I typically use the smaller sizing instead of shoving.

    Here my standard sizing would be about 40k, so the most I would shove is about 160k. If the effective stack were 120k or less, I would almost always shove.

    I know in Jonathan Little's first book he mentioned about shoving as deep as 40BBs as a squeeze like this spot, but his first book was about a decade ago and I think 3x was still the main standard. So for this spot, if the open was 15k, with a call, and my 3 bet would have been 60k, shoving over 200k is not unreasonable.

    However, in response to the modern game of 2.5x and 2.2x sizings in later levels, the 40BBs standard doesn't work as well as when it was first published.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭✭
    thanks for the reply
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,066 -
    Red wrote: »
    I'm a cash player... but wow, is it really necessary to shove after a single raise and call ?!
    I read some articles saying the new limit to push/fold was 15-20BB, but shoving 83BB after a raise of 5BB seems pretty disproportionate to me

    42bb
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  • Stomper13Stomper13 Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    It's definitely a large shove, but the problem with a more standard 3-bet this close to the bubble of a tournament is that you give one of your opponents the option of the all-in.

    This was my main reason for shoving. I don't think calling here and going multi way to flop is a good play and I didn't want to 3bet and have one of the villains shove and put me in a tough spot I would rather put them in a tough spot. I do however much prefer my shove if I would have had them both covered.

    Also thanks to everyone who has responded I didn't think I would get that much feedback. I tend to get pretty biased sometimes based on the results so that's the reason I posted the hand.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,066 -
    The key result here is you got V to call off when they were a 43/57 dog. Pretty decent outcome. Shame about the run-out, but that's the bit you can't control obv.
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