Another KK Hand

NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
Live 1/2 New Hampshire

Effective Stack = $475 V I have $525

Villain has just transferred from a broken table about 2 orbits ago. Table was playing anywhere from 5 to handed during that time due to people walking away so they weren't full orbits. Maybe 13-15 hands at the table. He never limped and opened a few times and had already 3 bet once or maybe twice...I don't remember. Younger kid, carried himself well and presented as being knowledgeable and clearly was not afraid to get his money in. I don't think any of his hands went to showdown.

Preflop
Hero: UTG :Kd :Kh Open for $12.

Folds to 3 seats to my left where V 3bets to $45. There were lots of people sitting out of hands at various times so I don't remember V's exact position but it was fairly late. Lojack I think. Folds to me and I call.

Flop($88) is :Jh :5h :5s I bet $65 and V calls without much thought

Turn($218) is :7c I bet $100 and V shoves it all in without much thought. I call for about $262 more.

River is :8c

Preflop to me the open is standard. When V 3 bets I think his range is pretty wide. TT+, All suited broadway cards, AKo, AQo, AJo, maybe even hands like 99 or QKo, JQo. He may have some 3bet bluffs in his range like A5s, or A4s but that didnt' occur to me until thinking about the hand after playing it.

I was going to 4 bet but I thought of my previous thread with a similar hand and Red commented: "Why 4 bet". So I thought of that and decided I didn't need to 4 bet. Instead I would just hope to dodge an A and go from there.

When the flop comes I think about checking and going for a check raise but I think that would give away some hand strength. I decided to lead out knowing that he was going to call at least one bet.

I think the turn bet was too small but didn't realize it until after. But if I bet $150 it only leaves a $215 bet into a $362 pot on the river. Then again maybe the flop bet was too big?


Looking to find out if leading out here is the best play or check-raising. Or checking the flop and then check-raising the turn? If I do that I risk him not betting the turn?

I have a feeling I have the best hand and want to get the most money in. I know he is going to call a flop bet. If he calls a turn bet then ok, if he folds I'm ok too and a jam is ok but it is the most I have ever put into one pot so just that aspect made me nervous a bit.

I ran it through poker cruncher and even with an A5s and A4s in his range I am 78% on the flop and 83% on the turn.


Thank you for any and all input

Comments

  • TheGrindersCookbookTheGrindersCookbook Merrimack, NHRed Chipper Posts: 68 ✭✭
    Where in NH was this hand? Chasers?
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »

    I was going to 4 bet but I thought of my previous thread with a similar hand and Red commented: "Why 4 bet". So I thought of that and decided I didn't need to 4 bet. Instead I would just hope to dodge an A and go from there.

    I recall that other post and would caution you in interpreting @Red 's response as instructing you not to 4 bet KK. I believe Red was advising you to develop a strategy for playing the hand that goes beyond hoping to dodge and ace and going from there.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    exactly @Jordan Power . Point of flatting most of 3bet at low stakes (with here) KK) would not be to "hope to dodge an A". This would be as bad a betting to "see where we are at".
    Yes too: I don't advise to flat per se, I advise to dig into "would be flatting good?". At the end, I'd support the "flat", but because it's part of a strategy as a whole, where flatting is more EV than 4betting. A strategy who also is prepare to navigate when the flop is AXX.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Preflop to me the open is standard. When V 3 bets I think his range is pretty wide. TT+, All suited broadway cards, AKo, AQo, AJo, maybe even hands like 99 or QKo, JQo. He may have some 3bet bluffs in his range like A5s, or A4s but that didnt' occur to me until thinking about the hand after playing it.
    This seems way too wide. And strangely constructed.
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 71 ✭✭
    edited April 15
    Not sure if OP is aware but this spot is vastly different from the other KK hand that you posted. I would be more likely to consider releasing this hand tbh. It's a paired board, if he is 3 betting light, then he has all the fives, you have none. He could have JJ and QQ, but he also has AA. You beat 6 combos (QQ), lose to 11 combos (AA, A5s, and JJ) and chop with 1 combo (KK). Gross spot tbh.
  • NpchapmanNpchapman Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
    I think the thing here is that KK is a pair. Just a pair. Preflop it’s a big pair. Post flop it really is just one pair and has lost practically all of its shine. Still has a bit though. On the turn it’s just a piece of everyday poker crap. On the river it’s a dreadful mess. So if we are in the worst possible position UTG, the only way to get the power of KK to work is to get all in preflop. If we are trying to be clever with KK it’s dumb. The database and the maths says that KK is profitable. The exception is only when they are slow played all the way to the river (not including AA and flopped miracles). Most people won’t make it to the river with less than a terrible pr of dealt Kings. What is all the fuss about? If you generally get allin pre, after 100 hands you will be in big profit! This I write after a good old sniff around my own database! Let me know if anyone finds a different story. I think not.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    When the flop comes I think about checking and going for a check raise but I think that would give away some hand strength. I decided to lead out knowing that he was going to call at least one bet.
    Why leading ?
    Do you realize that V has (at least theoretically) a range advantage on you ?
  • Steve MSteve M Red Chipper Posts: 39 ✭✭
    To @Red 's point, when you decide to only call the 3-Bet, you are doing it to keep villain's entire 3-Bet range in play, not to try and dodge an ace. If you are choosing to do this, you really need to understand the idea of range vs range & you do that by first constructing his 3-Bet range which you did...
    When V 3 bets I think his range is pretty wide. TT+, All suited broadway cards, AKo, AQo, AJo, maybe even hands like 99 or QKo, JQo. He may have some 3bet bluffs in his range like A5s, or A4s but that didnt' occur to me until thinking about the hand after playing it.

    Now I also agree with @Red that this seems too wide but if you do assign him this range, your decision to not 4 bet is so you keep all of villain's hands in play that you are way ahead of. Using that logic, take a look at @Red's last question as to 'why leading' and ask yourself why it is contradictory to the flat pre-flop?
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    JSnow wrote: »
    Where in NH was this hand? Chasers?

    yup
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    exactly @Jordan Power . Point of flatting most of 3bet at low stakes (with here) KK) would not be to "hope to dodge an A". This would be as bad a betting to "see where we are at".
    Yes too: I don't advise to flat per se, I advise to dig into "would be flatting good?". At the end, I'd support the "flat", but because it's part of a strategy as a whole, where flatting is more EV than 4betting. A strategy who also is prepare to navigate when the flop is AXX.

    I did not flat "hoping to dodge an A" Maybe I should have been more clear. I flatted to keep MY range wide. By 4 betting I narrow my range to V who I think is somewhat of a thinking player.

  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Preflop to me the open is standard. When V 3 bets I think his range is pretty wide. TT+, All suited broadway cards, AKo, AQo, AJo, maybe even hands like 99 or QKo, JQo. He may have some 3bet bluffs in his range like A5s, or A4s but that didnt' occur to me until thinking about the hand after playing it.
    This seems way too wide. And strangely constructed.


    Yes it was a constructed range. My initial thought at the table was Big A and that is what I went with in the hand. It was later when I sat down and thought about the hand and the player and thought of what other hands he would 3 bet with and then is when I put those other hands in poker cruncher. I never remotely had any 5 in his range at the table. I thought of the A5s 3 bet bluff after. I included it in my calculations to see what my worst and best equities would be.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »

    I was going to 4 bet but I thought of my previous thread with a similar hand and Red commented: "Why 4 bet". So I thought of that and decided I didn't need to 4 bet. Instead I would just hope to dodge an A and go from there.

    I recall that other post and would caution you in interpreting @Red 's response as instructing you not to 4 bet KK. I believe Red was advising you to develop a strategy for playing the hand that goes beyond hoping to dodge and ace and going from there.


    The majority of his range contains an A. I suppose in his mind my range can contain an A also but with my holdings I don't want to put my stack in with a perceived range v range hand. I'd rather play with his range vs my holdings.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    edited April 16
    osirus0830 wrote: »
    Not sure if OP is aware but this spot is vastly different from the other KK hand that you posted. I would be more likely to consider releasing this hand tbh. It's a paired board, if he is 3 betting light, then he has all the fives, you have none. He could have JJ and QQ, but he also has AA. You beat 6 combos (QQ), lose to 11 combos (AA, A5s, and JJ) and chop with 1 combo (KK). Gross spot tbh.

    What about all the A combos? AKs AQs AJs? AKo? In live time I didn't think of the A5s bluff so yes a mistake.

    Sorry also if I wasn't clear but I meant pre flop. Pretty similar in the open/3 bet/4 bet or flat. Obviously OOP in this one.

    When led out on the flop I had zero 5s in his range...I didn't even blink an eye. I thought it was a great flop for KK. If he shows up with JJ or AA then so be it.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Preflop to me the open is standard. When V 3 bets I think his range is pretty wide. TT+, All suited broadway cards, AKo, AQo, AJo, maybe even hands like 99 or QKo, JQo. He may have some 3bet bluffs in his range like A5s, or A4s but that didnt' occur to me until thinking about the hand after playing it.
    This seems way too wide. And strangely constructed.


    Yes it was a constructed range. My initial thought at the table was Big A and that is what I went with in the hand. It was later when I sat down and thought about the hand and the player and thought of what other hands he would 3 bet with and then is when I put those other hands in poker cruncher. I never remotely had any 5 in his range at the table. I thought of the A5s 3 bet bluff after. I included it in my calculations to see what my worst and best equities would be.

    You cannot add combo AFTER because suddenly "oh my god I'm sure he has a 5 because he could have A5s !"
    You have to assign him a 3-bet range preflop. Then you cannot add new combos in this range, only shrink the range based on actions).

    https://redchippoker.com/laws-hand-reading/


  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Ok so let's go back then and go with my initial thoughts at the table. Ats+, TT+, ATo+, Maybe KQs, KQo. Other suited broadway hands came to mind but I didn't' give them much weight.

    I don't understand why wanting to dodge an ace is bad? The majority of his preflop range is an A. Not that if an A comes I am going to instafold but it will certainly change my post flop play.

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