Should this hand be dead and other questions

bmaddenbmadden Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
edited April 15 in Live Poker Hands
Playing 1/2 at a Casino last night. About 3 hours into my session New Player joins table. He takes the one seat right next to dealer. A few hands in he jokingly (at least I thought so at the time but now think it may have been an attempt at angle shooting) says raise!, laughs and mucks his cards while laughing. Whatever. Ive seen plenty of amateur comedians in games.

So, Since he is playing somewhat wildly I eventually move 2 seats to his left to make life easier. Then a hand comes up. He straddles UTG for 5. Effective stacks are around 230ish (I will use non standard hand history since all details are not needed for my purposes). I limp with QQ in MP and he makes the expected raise to 35 after flashing cards to dealer and saying "I don't know what to do here" and getting a shrug and smile with an I don't know from the dealer he flats. . I raise to 80 to commit stacks (no way Im ever folding to this guy no matter what as he is a maniac) and he flats oop after performing the exact same communication with the dealer that he did prior to my 3 bet. flop comes 7 5 3 (suits not important here). I check and as I expected he shoves his range of pretty much anything. I snap call. Turn is a 5 and river is a 7. He tables Ad 7d for a miracle full house. He didn't seem to be stupid enough to make this play unless he knew what cards were coming but how can you prove that? (Of course the behavior during the hand was really weird). I decide to give benefit of doubt and rebuy and continue playing.

A few hands later he raises to 10 and I call with a small pair. Once again he starts with the flashing dealer his hole cards and "I don't know" routine. At this point I ask dealer if he could please ask the player to stop flashing his cards and if this is accepted behavior at this casino and also that it looks very suspicious. Immediately the player who was goofing off gets serious and say "No problem bro. Ill just check it down this time"
I called floor after this (a couple of other players at the table were a little wierded out by this too) and asked if this was standard at their casino and expressed the opinion that this players hand should be dead just like it would be if he showed it and discussed it during the hand with another player. He looked at me like I was from outer space and said there was nothing he could do about it. I racked up my chips and went straight to the gaming commission office to file a report and also spoke to casino management about the questionable game security at their place. I cant prove dealer player collusion (not entirely convinced it didn't happen though) but wow would it be easy to do in that scenario. Hoping I get lucky and maybe they see something on the tape that I didn't catch cuz Im not a gaming security expert. Im just there trying to play an honest game of poker and that's hard enough if youre thinking about the right things.

I cant find anything anywhere regarding the status of a players hand if they obviously flash it to the dealer. Anyone know anything or seen anything like this?

Comments

  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    I think that it varies by room. At every room that I've played in a player can expose both hole cards and play each street and the hand is live. Only way to argue collusion is if a third party is giving player advice on the hand. Nothing in your description leads me to believe that that was the case.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15
    Showing cards to the dealer isn't a fault per se - as long as the dealer doesn't give any advise.
    These goofy players are here to have fun, they are happy fishes ready to gamble. Be nice with them, buy them a (free) drink, show your bluff or monster like "ho, you didn't pay me this time T_T , look I had the nuts! ". At the end of the night, they are full of chips you want, and they will give if they are having a good time.

    Also I'd not be too bad against the dealer. Of course he is going to react, he isn't stone-made. Plus a reaction in somehow mandatory in a country where dealers depends on tips to pay their rent...
    Still, what does a "shrug and smile" means ? Is it a "Your hand is trash, you really gonna play it, lol" or a "bah, pay to see a flop man, maybe you're lucky" ?
    (I'd add that almost all dealers are poor players, but I'm not sure that really relevant haha)


    Maybe I'm a bit more cool about that because I played in Czech Rep and Hungary, where the atmosphere in casino is more like home games than rigorous rule enforcing places. Showing cards to your friend who already folded or to the dealer isn't uncommon and well accepted; people are there to have fun: smoke, drink, play cards (and play very badly too haha).


    ***
    Last but not least, there is one thing which is a problem:
    bmadden wrote: »
    A few hands in he jokingly (at least I thought so at the time but now think it may have been an attempt at angle shooting) says raise!, laughs and mucks his cards while laughing.
    This is but a mistake. If Villain announces a raise, he is committed to put at least a min raise, even if he folds right after saying "raise" (in which case, he put the min raise and he hand is still dead).

    Some don't know the rule and/or just want to be the clown of the table, so I'd say "hey, sorry, I don't want to be a pain in the ass, but beware, because once you announced a raise, you should be committed. Watch out for the next time my friend!"

    But if he continues, then I'd ask the dealer/floor to enforce the rule - even if I become then the tight a*s of the table... dura lex, sed lex
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 139 ✭✭
    The only thing I read that a floor could actually help you with is the announce raise/muck combo.

    Shuffle machines make it damn near impossible to stack the deck - unlucky run out, but I’d do everything you can to keep that fish on the hook and at the table
  • TheGrindersCookbookTheGrindersCookbook Merrimack, NHRed Chipper Posts: 68 ✭✭
    I have to believe you would need to be pretty dumb to openly collude like this. The dealer has his job on the line. Unfortunately, the run out looks super suspicious so I can't blame you for thinking that, but I don't think its collusion.

    In my casino a couple weeks ago a dealer actually signaled to his friend to come sit at his table game. They didnt reveal the game being played, but we can assume it was a poker variant. Anyways, the player sat and pretty shortly afterwards hit what the news would later call "a pretty hard hand to get". I like to think we are talking about a royal flush here. These table games are $10 max bet and he won over $2000. Immediately, the floor went to review the cameras and saw that the dealer was bottom dealing to his friend. Not only did the dealer lose his job, but the kid was banned for life and they are pressing criminal charges against them. Point being, with stakes this high, it is highly unlikely this was blatant collusion, just an unfortunate timing of events.

    Article is here: https://patch.com/new-hampshire/nashua/nashua-boston-billiards-dealer-charged-theft
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 192 ✭✭
    I play alot of weekend shifts late night with the half-drunk blackjack winners, craps shooters, roulette spinners, and let em riders who do everything youre complaining about on a routine basis. Nobody corrects them. Why? Theyre good for the game. I'd rather sit with these guys than a bunch of OMCs that nitpick and cry over rules and etiquette. You may lose out on a big blind or two, but these guys are going to pay u when u got it every time.
  • chip_hoggchip_hogg Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    TBH, it's not even that bad of a beat. Your opponent has quite a lot of equity when the money goes in. On the flop, a 5-outer has on the order of 20%. If he has a BDFD (as seems pretty likely), it's another 4% or so. (And this neglects the chop equity from the board running out a straight.)

    Also, that's assuming he knows your specific hand, which he doesn't. Your range isn't just overpairs here---if you really expect him to be raising wildly like this, you could easily have AK, probably AQ, maybe KQs as well. Those combos add up fast. Based on your write-up, it sounds like you're calling 100% of your limp-raising range against this villain. If so, his shove is borderline for value.

    All of which is to say, I see nothing remotely here to make me think villain had to know what cards were coming to make this play, nor to think this was a "miracle" full house. He didn't need the full house to beat you; trips were enough.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,270 -
    Once you're heads-up in a cash game your opponent can play his hand literally face up if he chooses. Flashing the cards to the dealer wastes time and is generally annoying, but nothing more.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,030 -
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Once you're heads-up in a cash game your opponent can play his hand literally face up if he chooses. Flashing the cards to the dealer wastes time and is generally annoying, but nothing more.
    I'm being overly-nitty, but I've played at smaller rooms around the US that will kill a hand flipped up (or even a single card) in a HU pot in cash games. Rules in this game are so hyper fluid sometimes lol...
    bmadden wrote: »
    ...He takes the one seat right next to dealer. A few hands in he jokingly (at least I thought so at the time but now think it may have been an attempt at angle shooting) says raise!, laughs and mucks his cards while laughing.
    The A7 hand is nothing too shocking, and this is the worst collusion ever if done this openly...however...my point is about this quoted bit.

    I actually say something here to the player. Very kindly of course, but I essentially say something to the effect of "Most poker rooms consider anything verbal to be binding. Just some friendly advice since I'd absolutely hate to see you get punished for making a harmless joke."

    Tone is super important here, but it sets precedence so if this person does something like this again during this session they can't claim they didn't know. Also, I find that the dealer usually chimes in to confirm once I've said this and they handle all of the complaining and follow-up joke hypotheticals from the jokebox...
  • bmaddenbmadden Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    edited April 17
    Thanks for responses. The input helps me with objectivity vs. that twilight zone feeling when you are running ridiculously bad (things like this have been more the norm than the exception for me the last couple of years. There were no diamonds on board so players equity was actually around 5 percent after the turn. Im glad I don't have poker tracker plugged in to my live results cuz it would probably be extremely demoralizing if I saw how ridiculously below EV Im running lol. I even took 3 months off from playing last year.The opponent did exactly what I thought he would do though so I still like my line and my read in the hand). I think the thing that was most disappointing and the catalyst for my reaction was the complete lackadaisical attitude of the floor and dealer regarding all that happened. I don't expect dealers to treat players like the soup Nazi but I don't think it is unreasonable to request a player to quit flashing their cards to ANYONE intentionally ( I may not have mentioned that he actually lifted them a foot off the table. It makes me very uncomfortable). As a spoiler...... No response from gaming commission (Its only been 3 days) yet but.....They DID review the tape prior to me leaving and didn't like what they saw. He told me that they saw enough on the tape to warrant a full investigation but didnt tell me WHAT they saw so i still dont know. I did witness the officer on duty walk to the room with the casino manager in tow as I was leaving. I didn't stay to see what happened though I was tempted. Felt it better to just leave and let them do their job and I was pretty disgusted and wanting to leave too. The casino manager agreed with me that this was not proper game or room management and she would be "fixing" the situation immediately and hoped I would return to play sometime in the future. (I don't plan to) I was mostly wondering about the ruling for exposing your hand and talking about it with the dealer as I have seen hands killed by players who exposed them and talked to other players (usually after a warning or two). but could find nothing on exposing to dealer so the answers kind of confirm why I cant find anything.

    As an aside and PSA......if you think dealer player collusion is impossible because of shuffling machines you may want to educate yourself on the subject when you get a chance. There are MANY ways it can be and has been done and several cases of people who have been caught. I do agree that it would be extremely stupid in these circumstances but I have witnessed and read about some extremely stupid criminals so...... ya never know lol. Especially if they have been playing in an overly permissive environment where no one ever questions anything or pays very close attention which is kinda how this place is. Agree though that I would be surprised if that's what they were doing.
  • rabidjazzrabidjazz Red Chipper Posts: 106 ✭✭
    edited April 17
    A couple of suckouts does not collusion make. It's how really bad poker players get big stacks. If you had stuck around for a couple more hours you probably would have seen him give it all back to the table playing the same haphazard way. Some people just want to gamble.

    If he played this way in my regular casino there would probably be a list of players trying to get on his table.

    -rJ

    ETA: While there may be rooms where showing your cards to another player in the hand would kill his hand, I would, instead, expect his cards to be exposed to all other players and he be forced to play face up; and receive a warning.

    The same for saying raise while he still has cards, if he is not forced to raise.

  • chip_hoggchip_hogg Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    Wait, so did he shove the flop or turn? Your original post was a little confusing on that point.

    In any case, even if he shoved the turn and there are no diamonds, he has 11%, not 5%.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,270 -
    SplitSuit wrote: »

    I'm being overly-nitty, but I've played at smaller rooms around the US that will kill a hand flipped up (or even a single card) in a HU pot in cash games. Rules in this game are so hyper fluid sometimes lol...

    .

    See this is why I keep you around, Split. As you know I never leave the LV Valley and assume poker is played the same everywhere.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • bmaddenbmadden Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    chip_hogg wrote: »
    Wait, so did he shove the flop or turn? Your original post was a little confusing on that point.

    In any case, even if he shoved the turn and there are no diamonds, he has 11%, not 5%.

    Went back and checked my post. Looked clear to me. He shoved flop which is what I was hoping he would do. You're right about the 11 vs the 5. Brain fart. I've had worse beats for sure but would certainly have to disagree with you about this one not being all that bad. But...it is what it is... Done playing in that room though. Too many other options where I live to deal with such a poorly managed room.
  • bmaddenbmadden Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    rabidjazz wrote: »
    A couple of suckouts does not collusion make. It's how really bad poker players get big stacks. If you had stuck around for a couple more hours you probably would have seen him give it all back to the table playing the same haphazard way. Some people just want to gamble.

    If he played this way in my regular casino there would probably be a list of players trying to get on his table.

    -rJ

    ETA: While there may be rooms where showing your cards to another player in the hand would kill his hand, I would, instead, expect his cards to be exposed to all other players and he be forced to play face up; and receive a warning.

    The same for saying raise while he still has cards, if he is not forced to raise.

    I definitely would have stuck around for sure if not for the complete lack of respect I was shown by the floor when they came to the table. That's basically what set me off. You are right though...It most likely was a profitable albeit high variance potential situation.
  • chip_hoggchip_hogg Red Chipper Posts: 80 ✭✭
    bmadden wrote: »
    Went back and checked my post. Looked clear to me. He shoved flop which is what I was hoping he would do. You're right about the 11 vs the 5. Brain fart. I've had worse beats for sure but would certainly have to disagree with you about this one not being all that bad. But...it is what it is... Done playing in that room though. Too many other options where I live to deal with such a poorly managed room.

    No worries! I originally thought it was clear as well, but when you said you checked the flop (even though you were in position), it made me confused.

    The other thing that made me confused is that you said he had so little equity---but if he shoved the flop, he's got more like 20%. This odds calculator gives him 22.63% equity. The only way I could reconcile your equity estimations with the writeup was if you had meant to say he shoved the turn.

    22% is a significant chunk of equity---but, yeah, it sucks to be a clear favorite and then lose. :(
  • bmaddenbmadden Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    edited April 19
    chip_hogg wrote: »
    bmadden wrote: »
    Went back and checked my post. Looked clear to me. He shoved flop which is what I was hoping he would do. You're right about the 11 vs the 5. Brain fart. I've had worse beats for sure but would certainly have to disagree with you about this one not being all that bad. But...it is what it is... Done playing in that room though. Too many other options where I live to deal with such a poorly managed room.

    No worries! I originally thought it was clear as well, but when you said you checked the flop (even though you were in position), it made me confused.

    The other thing that made me confused is that you said he had so little equity---but if he shoved the flop, he's got more like 20%. This odds calculator gives him 22.63% equity. The only way I could reconcile your equity estimations with the writeup was if you had meant to say he shoved the turn.

    22% is a significant chunk of equity---but, yeah, it sucks to be a clear favorite and then lose. :(

    Ugh! I put him UTG lol. My bad, I see your confusion now. I was OOP and he was actually the button. That's what I get for trying to use a non standard HH lol. I'm having a bad week (month, or.....maybe year? lol) .
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,778 -
    edited April 22
    bmadden wrote: »
    As an aside and PSA......if you think dealer player collusion is impossible because of shuffling machines you may want to educate yourself on the subject when you get a chance. There are MANY ways it can be and has been done and several cases of people who have been caught.

    I have a background in card magic and card manipulation.

    I would like to hear one effective way that the deck can be stacked in a public card room using a card shuffler and one documented case of a player and dealer getting caught after effectively stacking the deck in a public card room using a deck shuffler.

    I do not believe for a moment that you can produce this.

    The fact that you think the guy shoving TPTK on the flop was collusion further diminishes my faith in your opinion on this subject. Casting baseless doubt on the integrity of games in public card rooms is bad for the industry that I love.

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -Carl Sagan
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    I would like to hear one effective way that the deck can be stacked

    This does not seem like a situation for a stacked deck - it seems like a situation where the dealer deals off the bottom or some other card or cards he was aware of - for example, flashing himself when cutting the deck. Having said that, I don't disagree with you in general.

  • bmaddenbmadden Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    edited April 28
    wasn't referring to a stacked deck. Just that auto shufflers do not INSURE you against being cheated. heres one instance.https://www.cardschat.com/news/florida-derby-lane-poker-dealer-charged-with-felony-55861
    Peeking can be done even with cut cards and burn cards. Signaling is also very possible in numerous ways. Not saying it happens regularly but not educating yourself is not wise. I'm not going to turn this into a tinfoil hat thread though cuz that was not my original question plus every time someone posts anything on two plus two about suspicious activity in a game the hordes turn up in droves to belittle those who would dare to question the squeaky clean integrity of any card room and I don't want this forum to turn into that. Even if an auto shuffler was programmed to use a certain sequence (the new ones can be) there are too many other variables to make this an effective method to profitably benefit anyone (how would you know how many players would be in a particular hand for example?). I understand that. I was just wondering if this would be grounds to kill a hand.
  • bmaddenbmadden Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    link in above article is wrong. I have to find the one I was looking for again if anyone really cares.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bmadden wrote: »
    I was just wondering if this would be grounds to kill a hand.

    Possibly, since the player showed his hand to another person and got a reaction from that person. It could be conceivable that the dealer could see the bottom card on the deck and signal to the player if that card could help his hand. But less dramatic than that, a reaction from anyone could help you play your hand regardless of the next card.

  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,778 -
    edited April 29
    I believe this was at Ultimate Texas Hold'em, a pit game, not poker as we think about it.

    I called the poker room, the biggest games that ever get regularly dealt there are $2-$5.

    However, there are many poker based pit games there:
    http://www.derbylanepoker.com/games-limits.aspx

    The language used "maxed out his bets in the second set,” does not sound like Hold'em, but sounds like a pit game.

    The games and limits that are available there for hold'em are 1-2 through 5-10 by the website. The cohort cashed out for $29,600. That is an exceptional amount even in a $5-$10 and as I found out, the biggest game is $2-$5 normally. However in a pit game with a maximum bet of $7000, this is very reasonable.

    Reporters are notoriously ignorant when writing stories that require any kind of specialized knowledge. Interpreting "Poker dealer" as "Pit dealer" makes this much more plausible.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks

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