Correct to Fold When a Turn Overcard Comes?

gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
$.02/.04 Online 6 Players
Effective Stack Size: $2.00

Hero is on BB with :QC: :TC: .
HJ limps. BU limps. Hero raises to $.20. BU calls.

Pot: $.46
Flop: :4D: :QH: :3H:
Hero bets $.23. BU calls.

Pot: $.92
Turn: :AD:
Hero checks. BU bets $.92. Hero folds.

Was this too nitty of a fold? Villain was the type to call very wide so he might have Ax in his range. Previously, he 4 bet shoved with QTo and got lucky against my AKs. I played it safe since I was OOP and thought that I would need to face another bet on the river with a marginal hand, especially since there are a lot of bad river cards that could come.
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Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,999 -
    Do you have any info on BU? Are they more likely to play a NFD fast on the flop? Does a PSB mean anything in particular? Is AQ ever in this limp-behind range preflop?

    In general, this seems too nitty to me especially since this seems like the kind of player who gives some action...
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Do you have any info on BU? Are they more likely to play a NFD fast on the flop? Does a PSB mean anything in particular? Is AQ ever in this limp-behind range preflop?

    In general, this seems too nitty to me especially since this seems like the kind of player who gives some action...

    Not enough information on BU to answer your questions other than what I gave in the description. :( I wish I took better notes. :( I don’t think Villain would limp with AQ given that Villain shoved with QTo. If I called and the river were a blank, do you think this is a check call or a fold situation for the river?
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,999 -
    The pot would be far too large to x/fold the river.
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    The pot would be far too large to x/fold the river.

    How does one reconcile that with the fact that second pair isn’t one of the hands that can handle three barrels of betting (or did I make a mistake with cbetting the flop)?
  • obliviusoblivius San FranciscoRed Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
    I believe you got in trouble by checking the turn...You have range advantage..Unless I had a ton of stats on V then I'd certainly bet the turn maybe 1/2-2/3 psb then eval V's play. Giving away the lead in that spot will create tough spots more than not
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
    oblivius wrote: »
    I believe you got in trouble by checking the turn...You have range advantage..Unless I had a ton of stats on V then I'd certainly bet the turn maybe 1/2-2/3 psb then eval V's play. Giving away the lead in that spot will create tough spots more than not

    Yeah, I did think about that. However, my thoughts were that betting on the flop meant representing a Q, so if I bet the turn, it would be inconsistent with the hand that I would be trying to represent. Something tells me that this line of reasoning is very flawed though.
  • RyanH1995RyanH1995 Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    I agree with what @oblivius said. Also if this villain is aggressive enough to 4bet shove with QTo I think he is probably raising all his Ax and better on the button when limped to. A lot of players at the micros will stab very wide on the turn when checked to because they perceive your check on the turn as you giving up and don't expect you to have a hand you can call with. His sizing also looks pretty bluffy on the turn. I would call turn and call any blank river as he could be doing this with :heart draws or picked up :diamond draws on the turn neither of which you block.
  • obliviusoblivius San FranciscoRed Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
    edited April 19
    Sure you're repping Q but moreover an entire range... your 3b range is not just your hand...Do some reading on "range advantage" etc. If you're only betting a pair Q's or better on a Q high flop you have work to do. Keep reading and posting.. that's a good start.... go get em
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
    oblivius wrote: »
    Sure you're repping Q but moreover an entire range... your 3b range is not just your hand...Do some reading on "range advantage" etc. If you're only betting a pair Q's or better on a Q high flop you have work to do. Keep reading and posting.. that's a good start.... go get em

    Could you explain what it means to rep an entire range please? I understand a little bit about range advantage but repping an entire range sounds new to me.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,999 -
    gl523 wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    The pot would be far too large to x/fold the river.

    How does one reconcile that with the fact that second pair isn’t one of the hands that can handle three barrels of betting (or did I make a mistake with cbetting the flop)?

    Based upon what? (this applies to both parts of your question)
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    gl523 wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    The pot would be far too large to x/fold the river.

    How does one reconcile that with the fact that second pair isn’t one of the hands that can handle three barrels of betting (or did I make a mistake with cbetting the flop)?

    Based upon what? (this applies to both parts of your question)

    What do you mean “based on what”? I don’t understand your question.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,999 -
    gl523 wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    gl523 wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    The pot would be far too large to x/fold the river.

    How does one reconcile that with the fact that second pair isn’t one of the hands that can handle three barrels of betting (or did I make a mistake with cbetting the flop)?

    Based upon what? (this applies to both parts of your question)

    What do you mean “based on what”? I don’t understand your question.

    Why do you feel second pair cannot be a combo that can handle 3 barrels of pressure? (though fwiw, this is not that kind of situation)

    Why do you feel you made a mistake with CBing the flop? Would you say the same thing if the turn were the :8S: ?
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    gl523 wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    gl523 wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    The pot would be far too large to x/fold the river.

    How does one reconcile that with the fact that second pair isn’t one of the hands that can handle three barrels of betting (or did I make a mistake with cbetting the flop)?

    Based upon what? (this applies to both parts of your question)

    What do you mean “based on what”? I don’t understand your question.

    Why do you feel second pair cannot be a combo that can handle 3 barrels of pressure? (though fwiw, this is not that kind of situation)

    Why do you feel you made a mistake with CBing the flop? Would you say the same thing if the turn were the :8S: ?

    I read it in this article on the paragraph on how many bets a hand is worth. I perceived that middle pair in this case was worth 1 to 2 bets. Did I misapply the concepts in this article? Here’s the article (principle number 3): https://redchippoker.com/4-questions-before-c-betting/

    Here’s the relevant section of the article: “Principle number three is how many streets of value is a hand worth? Hopefully at some point in your poker career you’ve already picked up the ability to estimate roughly how much value flop hands are worth. So when you see a hand you should be able to say, well I can normally get three streets out of this, or I can normally get two streets but not three. Or this is a one street of value hand, we have to be able to do this. Now if this is something you’re not used to keep in mind that it’s something that is dynamic and it’s going to change based on the exact board textures. So it’s impossible to state exactly how much different hands are worth in terms of streets of value, also it’s going to depend on our opponent because if our opponent is a calling station then a hands worth more value then if he’s a nit, as we don’t get as much value.

    But it’s a very, very rough guide, top pair, top kicker plus. Not always top pair top kicker actually, in many cases it’s always two pair plus, is worth three streets of value. Top pairs and very good second pairs are worth two streets of value. Weak second pairs are lower, sometimes worth one street of value. A pair is typically worth one street of value but not worth anymore than that, especially if it’s something like third pair. Now obviously this is just a super rough guide, because we might have something as strong as a straight for example. But if the board has run out in such a way that there are four cards to a flush on the board, then our straight is not worth a value bet on the river. So the hand is only going to be worth two streets because of the board run out. So it’s really somewhat dependent on the board texture.

    So how does this apply to C-betting? Well the general idea is this, if we have hand that are only worth two streets of value and this includes possible draws that we have, which would be only worth two streets of value if they hit. Then we don’t need to feel a large necessity to fire the flop, if a hand is only worth two streets of value anyway, there’s not a huge negative consequence associated with just checking the flop. We can get our value on the turn and river. If we have a weak draw and it hits on the turn we can get our value with these hand as well, on the turn and river. The exception of course is that we have a vulnerable holding, if we have a hand that’s worth two streets but is also extremely vulnerable then we should feel a necessity to C-bet the flop. Because there are a ton of negative consequences associated with giving that free turn card with a vulnerable holding.”

    I thought that I bloated the pot with an okay kicker. Not sure what to say if the turn card was a blank.

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