Big Pot and No Good Options

RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 288 ✭✭✭
2/5 game, Hero is the effective stack with ~800 preflop. The game has been very loose and fun, with most hands going 4 or 5 ways to the flop for $20-30.

V1 opens UTG to 20. He claims he has only been playing the game for 3 months, but if true he has an amazing knack for it. Probably plays and opens too many hands preflop, but nothing exorbitant. Also maybe wants to get involved in a pot with me, as I've been 3-betting a decent amount and haven't shown much down.

MP calls.

CO calls. He is a loose, splashy, somewhat laggy player that has been seeing maybe 65% of flops and has been running hot. Knows how to play this style.

Button calls. Also fairly loose. Good at hand reading and applying pressure to weak ranges.

Hero in SB raises to 175 with :Qh :Qs

I knew a smaller raise size would definitely get called in multiple spots and was hoping to get the pot heads up. I assumed this would be enough.

UTG, CO, BTN all call.

Flop (700)
:Ad :Jd :5c

With about 600 behind, I'm pretty much checking my entire range here. I have all of the AA, JJ, AK, and AQ, and there's a good chance someone behind me (CO or BTN) will get squirrelly and make a move if I check. I also think jamming the flop is really only going to get called by very big hands and draws, whereas jamming on a blank turn if it checks around may get called by a curious pocket pair or Jx and puts more pressure on draws.

Hero checks.
UTG bets 250. CO folds. BTN calls.

I absolutely hate this spot. I'm getting 5:1 on a call, but UTG has a ton of big aces, and BTN is going to have a lot of aces when he calls. Furthermore, I can't imagine I'm often going to see a showdown without putting in the rest of my money.

I didn't like any of my options, but ended up folding. Curious about everyone else's take on this hand.

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you have no folds, what incentive would anyone have to bet a range?
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 288 ✭✭✭
    If I legitimately have no folds, of course they are only incentivized to bet their strongest hands because they will get paid off. So in order to implement a strategy revolving around checking to get paid by a bluff, I need to have folds and QQ is a great hand to fold, unblocking AK, AJ, and JJ while blocking one logical bluff, KQ.

    However, for this line, I would think it is more important to have perceived folds than actual folds. When I check, Vs are going to put me on QQ-KK often and someone is going to try to pick up that juicy pot with a bluff. If my check causes them to overbluff because they assume I am going to fold these hands, and I am getting such great odds to call, an actual folding range becomes less important. Obviously, I don't know that my action IS causing the V in question to bluff too frequently, but if it were against a player known to be overly aggressive like the CO I think there is some merit to this idea.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well of course - your protected checks are some of your perceived folds. In other words you checked Ax here so that you wouldn't have felt qq.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20
    Roblivion wrote: »
    Hero in SB raises to 175 with :Qh :Qs
    I reaaaaally don't like your 3bet bet sizing.

    V bet 20$, 2 callers, so there is 60$ in the pot. And you bomb up to 175$. This is a huge sizing. Why not 100-140 ? (Yes, because you feared a lower sizing would have less/no FE, but keep reading)

    Also I'm not sure I'd 3bet that huge with QQ, I think 175 is a sizing so big that only AA/AK or KK+/AK could sustain it.
    And a big sizing could look bluffy, like you've JJ, TT or A9s and don't know what to do with it. (AKA it could look like a bet sizing tell.) So a too big of a sizing could be counterproductive on your FE.

    I still could be on board for a raise. But a smaller one - 100-140$. We expect a 2-4 SPR allowing us some postlfop maneuverability.
    Also by raising to 100-140$, you open the gate for a 4bet, esp. by UTG. So I prefer SB raise 110, UTG re-raise to 300, all fold, you call and see a SPR 1.5 flop HU than you making a too big raise and see a SPR 1.2 flop MW.

    Yet V1 is UTG and apparently knows some stuff (I guess at least ABC poker and have an idea of opening ranges and position). Which mean his range is pretty to very strong: does he have anything to fold in his range ?
    Plus you said you 3bet a lot recently AND it looks like he want to play against you.
    This doesn't seem a scenario where he will let it go.

    Worst: if UTG calls (maybe up to KK/AK?), he then invites the others to join the gang, putting you in a difficult spot: 1 SPR, MW, with a which faces regularly and overcard on flop (and you can expect that at least UTG will hit it often).

    So calling seem way better - and we need to call with great hands sometimes to protect our calling range.

    Bottom line: I think it's the right time to only call with QQ. (I could see a raise, but not so big and not too often). We will see a flop with a very good hand and a ~8 SPR.
    Roblivion wrote: »
    Hero checks.
    UTG bets 250. CO folds. BTN calls.
    Could UTG bluff?
    What is a bluff here? KdTd ? KQo? TT ? There a very few bluff UTG could have. Also he is betting into a SPR 1 pot and against 2,5 players (you count as 0.5 since you didn't shove flop). IMHO this is AJ+ hand.

    Now BU call. Yeah he could be looser and have combo you have decent equity against. But even if he has a :DIAMOND: draw, he has decent equity AND considering SPR he will be able to realize it. What equity does have QQ against like Td9d ?

    So it's a very easy fold.
    But this is an ugly fold as I think this spot shall not happen when playing the flop differently (smaller 3bet size or call).
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 483 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Bottom line: I think it's the right time to only call with QQ. (I could see a raise, but not so big and not too often). We will see a flop with a very good hand and a ~8 SPR.

    Not in a million years would I have thought of only calling preflop. Thanks for that.

  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 288 ✭✭✭
    @Red
    Not that it matters a ton, but there were 3 callers of the initial bet, not 2. So a pot sized raise would have been around 120 total. I decided on 175 because in this game, I knew there was a good chance it would be called by a wide array of low equity hands. I think if anything I should have made it larger. Yes, it may look bluffy. Fine, I have a premium hand.

    I take your point about flatting to protect my flatting range, but my SB flatting range in a 5-6 way pot is a minor concern for me when I know that people are willing to put in gobs of money preflop versus one of my strongest holdings. Call me crazy, but if the choices are playing a HU pot with a 2 SPR, playing a 4 way pot with a 1 SPR, or playing a 6 way pot with an 8 SPR, with QQ the 8 SPR is last on my list.
    Red wrote: »
    Could UTG bluff?
    What is a bluff here? KdTd ? KQo? TT ? There a very few bluff UTG could have. Also he is betting into a SPR 1 pot and against 2,5 players (you count as 0.5 since you didn't shove flop). IMHO this is AJ+ hand.

    Now BU call. Yeah he could be looser and have combo you have decent equity against. But even if he has a :DIAMOND: draw, he has decent equity AND considering SPR he will be able to realize it. What equity does have QQ against like Td9d ?

    So it's a very easy fold.
    But this is an ugly fold as I think this spot shall not happen when playing the flop differently (smaller 3bet size or call).

    That was pretty much my thinking at the table. I just hated folding for such a small amount.
    Basically, I wanted to double check my fold because I got to see the rest of the hand play out and felt like a fool. They both checked down turn and river. UTG showed KQo and BTN had JTo for the win with one pair
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's no doubt that this should be a three bet in general. But i don't think it is an easy fold, it's just an understandable one. The spr is too low to fold much, the odds are right, and there are going to be some odd scenarios like this one.

    If you always fold on overcards, imagine your error; if you always call imagine your error. I wouldn't worry too much. Maybe some of your clues about these players indicated this was the time, not sure.
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 288 ✭✭✭
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    Side note: completely ludicrous ranges by villains here, how does button ever get here and call the flop and how do I get in on this game? =)

    Come up to Potawatomi in Milwaukee. Evidently even on a Thursday evening.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Also I'm not sure I'd 3bet that huge with QQ, I think 175 is a sizing so big that only AA/AK or KK+/AK could sustain it.

    Clearly not. I think we have to give Rob credit for actually being in the game.
    Red wrote: »
    And a big sizing could look bluffy, like you've JJ, TT or A9s and don't know what to do with it. (AKA it could look like a bet sizing tell.)

    So a good time to actually have QQ+, n'est-ce pas?
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    I'm in the Chicagoland area too. I primarily play in Hammond, Elgin, Majestic, and Potawatomi. Let me know if you guys ever want to do a redchip meetup

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