Stacking off with top set.

MrBalzterMrBalzter Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
Hey all I've lost 4 or 5 stacks with top set in a very short sample and I'm starting to think I'm doing some thing wrong. Please see the below hand.



PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 196.5 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
Hero (SB): 101.5 BB
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 60.00, PFR: 40.00, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 6)
UTG: 195.5 BB (VPIP: 19.61, PFR: 11.96, 3Bet Preflop: 3.48, Hands: 1,458)
MP: 124 BB (VPIP: 28.56, PFR: 20.57, 3Bet Preflop: 6.05, Hands: 1,040)
CO: 89.5 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Jd Qd
fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, fold, BTN calls 7 BB

Flop : (21 BB, 2 players) Qh 6d Qc
Hero bets 10 BB, BTN calls 10 BB

Turn : (41 BB, 2 players) 8s
Hero bets 20 BB, BTN raises to 40 BB, Hero calls 20 BB

River : (121 BB, 2 players) 5h
Hero bets 41.5 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 41.5 BB

Hero shows Jd Qd (Three of a Kind, Queens)
(Pre 49%, Flop 93%, Turn 16%)

BTN shows 8c 8d (Full House, Eights full of Queens)
(Pre 51%, Flop 7%, Turn 84%)

BTN wins 197 BB

Notes.
- I normally 3 Bet all my suited broadways preflop vs one opponent unless I have specific stats or notes.
- I normally barrel all three streets with top set unless very deep, or with specific player notes.
- If I am betting for value I generally have target hands in mind, over pairs, Q9,Q10 and maybe 99-JJ in this case


Comments

  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2
    A set is when you have a pair and get three of a kind, what you've got here is trips, so it can't be top anything. You could say trips top kicker, but you just have a good kicker, and the 5th nuts, as opposed to a top set which is very often the nuts on the flop.

    Still, this is still a huge flop that I'd probably stack off with too, although not super enthusiastically given the turn action. Would 99-JJ ever raise the turn?
  • AHallai_3AHallai_3 Sault Ste Marie, MIRed Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Nothing wrong. Just a cooler. Only way the hand might change is if you flat instead of 3 betting. MAYBE they would raise the turn with JJ? I think what it really boils down to is what’s the type of player you 3 bet against out of position with a marginal hand.
  • MrBalzterMrBalzter Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    @MichaelB thanks for the clarification on the nomenclature between sets and trips. His raise on the turn was min raise so I didn't give it too much credit, I think I was planning on putting all the money no matter what he did.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,013 -
    MrBalzter wrote: »
    @MichaelB thanks for the clarification on the nomenclature between sets and trips. His raise on the turn was min raise so I didn't give it too much credit, I think I was planning on putting all the money no matter what he did.

    Just had this conversation with a student about what a min-raise means. From many opponents it's extreme strength. That said, it's hard not to go broke here given the SPR.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • MichaelBMichaelB Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    @MrBalzter No problem at all. I find it hard to give credit to min-clicks too, and have lost a decent chunk of change recently thanks to that, but as GameKat said, I don't see how we can ever fold, and he has so few bluffs here you can't check the river hoping he'll try to buy it, so yeah, my thought is, you will make a good profit just getting it in this spot no matter what happens.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 406 ✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »

    Just had this conversation with a student about what a min-raise means. From many opponents it's extreme strength. That said, it's hard not to go broke here given the SPR.

    Yeah the min-raise I am noticing more and more to be astoundingly polarizing for Vs which feels weird just typing this. This is just based on some recent observations but I think a lot of players realize the min raise represents a ton of strength (begging for a call, so to speak) so they'll min-raise with absolute air. I've run into a few situations with this recently. Certainly more nutted hands showing up but, and maybe this is just the sample size, I've seen quite a few airball bluffs show up as well.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2
    MichaelB wrote: »
    @MrBalzter No problem at all. I find it hard to give credit to min-clicks too, and have lost a decent chunk of change recently thanks to that, but as GameKat said, I don't see how we can ever fold,.
    You're so wrong...

    There is a huge difference between folding (mistake) and losing the minimum (right play).
    Here Hero lost everything (100bb) when he should have lost 50bb.

    H getting butchered on river can look like a cooler - at the end V only had 2 outs - and "we cannot fold because we have trips (not a set)". Still this decision and Hero being stacked is only the result of previous streets being badly played.

    To me this hands shows a lack of understanding of board texture / how ranges hit it, and how ranges should be bet (in extenso, for how much) and how to interpret actions.
    EDIT: Don't take my criticism as mockery; these are more here to point out what should be studied IMHO.
  • MrBalzterMrBalzter Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    @Red I would like some clarification.
    "previous streets being played badly"
    Preflop this is in my SB 3 Bet vs Btn range and 10bb is my SB 3 Bet size vs 3bb open.
    Flop, in 3 bet pots I usually bet 1/2pot. I saw no reason to let this street go by without betting. Many players call to much on the flop. This board is hard to hit as there are no draws available, so I figured villain would call with a wider range.

    So far I think I played Preflop and Flop well.


    Turn, this card is a blank unless he has 88. There are still no draws. I figured he would call with medium pocket pairs, and un be-leaving over pairs and over cards.

    Is there any reason to check here?

    Many SB 3 Betting Ranges are very wide and villain could be trying to push me off total air with his wide Btn range.


    River, this card misses both our ranges as well. If he was doing something goofy on the turn with a premium he didn't 4 bet pre I didn't want him to check it down.

    Maybe it would have been better to check and call?
    Perhaps his betting range on the River would be larger than his calling range?

    So through out the hand I was considering how ranges interact with this particular board and I followed what is considered standard bet sizes as well.

    Perhaps " how to interpret actions" could use some work on my part. I know in The Course skill No 2 is not to pay people off and I certainty did here. But I figured he broke "a rule" first by using the min bet so I could break a rule as well.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    @MrBalzter
    I'll give you some hints and let you try to figure it out:
    - There is a difference between a 2bet pot and a 3bet pot, bot in terms of SPR and ranges
    - What is V range on the flop? What is V range on the turn?
    - - How often does he fold when you bet? How many combos continues; and in them how many do you beat and how many beat you ?
    - What is V possibly min check-raising turn with ?
    - Bet sizing is important both to the flop and (more importantly) to the range played. As Persuadeo said: "Price = Range"

    And question on the go: why calling turn and small donkbet shove river ?
  • MrBalzterMrBalzter Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Thanks @Red your questions are in line with the thought process I used and illustrated above.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm happy to discuss it further and go deep in detail (#nerdlikesplitsuit); but I want you to make some homeworks first and answer the question in my previous post with concrete ranges and equilab/flopzilla/etc range, equity and EV analysis.

    Any hand is worth at least 2 hours studying :)
  • obliviusoblivius San FranciscoRed Chipper Posts: 68 ✭✭
    agree with Red... studying is key... not knowing the definition of "set" v "trips" is very significant. One thing that strikes the riv play, as said above, which hands are you expecting to get called by that don't beat u? How many worse Qx hands that call the PF 3b does the BU have? Agreed the T small raise is super polarizing and by the time the riv comes the spr is kind of "committed" low but I like Reds thinking.
    Your comment of:

    Maybe it would have been better to check and call?
    Perhaps his betting range on the River would be larger than his calling range?


    This is an important concept too...
    Seems like after checking the Riv, to me the SPR is too small for V to try to bluff... Ahhhh poker, so complex

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