PROJECT: Making Poker Fun

TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,140 -
edited May 2 in General Concepts
Hey everyone:

Following on from the SOSA thread I've decided to present the great minds of this forum with a challenge. It's pretty simple: how do we make poker more fun? And since the purpose of RCP is helping players win, what this really boils down to is: How do we make poker more fun for the players who are doomed to lose and from whom we profit? I'm restricting it to live poker for now, but online might warrant another thread.

To start off, I'm going to throw out some ideas that - based on some of the comments in the SOSA thread - many of you will find heretical.

Aside: why do people put tl;dr at the end of threads where anyone who "dr" won't see it? So tl;dr this goes on a bit, just my ideas on the topic.

The first point I feel strongly about is "fun" means different things to different people. I think we all have a mental image of a "fun" game. It's apparent that for many people this would look like people doing tequila shots and talking and laughing a lot. Because, we are told, poker is a "social game," and being social means talking constantly and generally whooping it up. And we see these "fun" players at the tables all the time! Just watch LATB and the fun that produces. (Did anyone say "Armenian Mike angle shoot"?)

Or do we? Loud people are more visible (hearable?) precisely because they are loud. It may appear that the table is having a fine old (loud, social) time, but I've frequently noticed that many people are sitting there quietly simply playing poker. And this is hardly surprising. Many people are introverts. They like the rules and order of a poker table. They do not like it turning into the craps pit.

There also seems to be a tacit assumption that fun players and recreational players are the same beast. I think this is mistaken. There are plenty of losing, recreational tourists in Vegas who take their poker very seriously. They vary in skill level and some have got such a poor theoretical foundation they don't stand a chance, but they sincerely believe they are applying poker skills to a game they love, and they don't appreciate some baboon yelling in their ear and spilling booze on them.

Perhaps the most common recreational player type at low-limit NLHE is someone who regards poker as a slot machine. They are there to "try and make hands." When they make a certain hand they feel it should have a certain pay-off, like a slot machine pay table. They get to attempt to make these hands by getting into pots cheaply. That, for them, is the fun of poker.

So we could cater to these players in a very simple way to make sure they are having fun. We'd never raise or 3-bet preflop since this interferes with their fun. We'd never check-raise for similar reasons and we'd fold rather than draw out on their AA. Is this fundamentally different from abandoning the rules of poker to ensure the noisy have fun?

As an introvert, my ideal game of poker is one played in perfect silence, with a shot clock to prevent all the prima donnas from pretending they're some idiot they've seen on TV. In other words, for me the reason that live poker is no longer fun is because it is too damn slow and I'm expected to engage in conversation with people on topics that don't interest me. I do this rather than plonk on headphones because I have, to a considerable degree, bought into this idea that poker is a social game, and we make it "fun" for the recreationals by gabbing and generally arseing about. And I'm wondering how many of those recreationals, like me, would wish that everyone would just shut up and get on with it?

Your turn. How do we make poker fun? For everybody?
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Comments

  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 183 ✭✭
    Lets make poker more like yahtzee. We'll get the cards and shake them in a cup, spill them on the table, best hand wins.
  • Bluffed_AgainBluffed_Again Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    I'm also an introvert, and I won't be the one to start a conversation. I will, however, join in the banter, and it makes it a lot more fun to sit at a table. If the table is too rowdy or someone close to me becomes annoying, I just move tables/seats. I view that as "on me" rather than a problem with the environment.

    What I've noticed in poker, and mostly in LV, is two things. First is the reg or someone who wants to appear to be a reg berating other players for their play. It's not in jest (which could be ok, if done right, to the right person). It's truly bitching at them because they either 1) played the hand badly and lost (in the opinion of the complainer) or 2) outplayed the complainer. Either way, it has the effect of denigrating another player and driving away recreational players (like me) who are mostly interested in having "fun." I've gotten up from extremely juicy tables because of people like this. I'm not interested in listening to this BS when I'm having fun at my hobby. If it was my job, I'd put up with it or try to change it. Since it's not, f*** it, I'm gone, and I'm taking my money with me.

    The second thing in LV is Kat's favorite group, the grumpy local promo-chasing nit-fest table. It's awful, but it's a product of the game the room is offering. To me, it's less the problem of the nits and more the problem of the room. I've sat at those tables and grinded out fairly substantial pre-flop wins for hours, and left the table thinking, "that wasn't worth it."

    My $0.02 coming from a rec player that visits LV to play poker and "have fun."
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    I think in general its not about what we can do, its the things we can stop doing that will help. Its pretty easy to get along with people, even if you're an introvert. Just be friendly, listen to people, ask them questions about stuff they want to talk about, chat about sports, make jokes, etc. But the stuff that makes a bigger difference is:

    1) Don't wear headphones or watch stuff on your ipad or iphone. Engage with the table.
    2) Don't talk strategy at the table
    3) Don't berate players or dealers

    In general just don't be so serious. No one is getting rich grinding 1/2 and 2/5. Your winrate/life EV will benefit more from being relaxed and friendly at the table than quiet and laser focused on every possible edge
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    While I agree with your post in general @NYCRy, I play a game every Thursday night where myself and a portion of some known regs at my card room play for a few hours together. It's a really engaging experience given that we all know that everyone else is trying to get better at the game. We talk a ton of strategy despite playing some very tough poker against each other. It would be less fun and reduce the camaraderie of these games to stop discussing strategy.

    However, I do see your point. Some people are not going to enjoy this. Hence why we have our own game now for it ( @GGECKO this reminds me, you need to come play in this game sometime, very fun).

    I guess it comes down to game selection. There are going to be times when its appropriate and other times when its horrendously irritating to some players. So I think to make poker more fun for the general player pool, I think we need to be excellent stewards of the game and making sure we are doing our best to keep the game at the level of intensity and focus that the table seems to want.

    So points 1 and 3 I think are going to be universally applicable to any table. I think point 2 is more of a feel thing.

    I also think that keeping a game fun really starts with it being a respectful environment. I don't let people berate dealers; I don't let players berate players. I think its on regulars to be better stewards of the game and move the game toward a place where everyone is going to have a better time. Easier said than done and I will be the first to admit I am light on specifics. But I do like that this is a thread.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Perhaps the most common recreational player type at low-limit NLHE is someone who regards poker as a slot machine. They are there to "try and make hands." When they make a certain hand they feel it should have a certain pay-off, like a slot machine pay table.

    I call that Video Poker Syndrome. It's something all players have to pay close attention to - it's relative hand strength that matters, not absolute hand strength.
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    As an introvert, my ideal game of poker is one played in perfect silence

    A little off topic, but I became interested in the meanings of introvert and exrovert because I was confused by stuff like Myers-Briggs results. Anyone who meets me would probably think I'm an extrovert, but being outgoing and talkative is just kind of my personality. But actually I'm an introvert, because the definition of that is where your energy comes from, not really how you act around people. When I want to recharge the batteries, I want to relax by myself, while extroverts want to be around family and friends, even if they're wallflowers. So you can't really tell if someone is an introvert or extrovert at the table.

    I bring it up because if you want to keep other players happy, you would want to know what makes them tick.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can always find problems in other players' games. I never talk strategy, except on rare occasions. One would be when a nice player trying to learn asks me a question, and then I'll turn my head and answer them quietly. But the most fun one is when the arrogant table captain puts down another player (especially a whale) and then I stick up for they whale by making fun of the arrogant player's game.
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2
    While I agree with your post in general @NYCRy, I play a game every Thursday night where myself and a portion of some known regs at my card room play for a few hours together. It's a really engaging experience given that we all know that everyone else is trying to get better at the game. We talk a ton of strategy despite playing some very tough poker against each other. It would be less fun and reduce the camaraderie of these games to stop discussing strategy.

    This is a very specific circumstance akin to "poker friends" discussing hands or whatever. That's fine. But I don't see how it applies to the topic. Discussing strategy at the table certainly makes poker less fun for the rec player who does not care about strategy. And plays the game for different reasons than people on poker forums



  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NYCRy wrote: »
    This is a very specific circumstance akin to "poker friends" discussing hands or whatever. That's fine. But I don't see how it applies to the topic. Discussing strategy at the table certainly makes poker less fun for the rec player who does not care about strategy.

    It could make it less fun for the players who care about strategy too! I play in one game where basically talk about math or strategy is not allowed. If you do it once the host will laugh and tell you to STFU. Do it again and the same thing will happen, except without much laughing.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,140 -
    edited May 2
    NYCRy wrote: »
    While I agree with your post in general @NYCRy, I play a game every Thursday night where myself and a portion of some known regs at my card room play for a few hours together. It's a really engaging experience given that we all know that everyone else is trying to get better at the game. We talk a ton of strategy despite playing some very tough poker against each other. It would be less fun and reduce the camaraderie of these games to stop discussing strategy.

    This is a very specific circumstance akin to "poker friends" discussing hands or whatever. That's fine. But I don't see how it applies to the topic. Discussing strategy at the table certainly makes poker less fun for the rec player who does not care about strategy. And plays the game for different reasons than people on poker forums



    Some great points above, particularly the importance of respect, but I wanted to respond specifically to this one. Talking poker strategy at the table is usually discouraged on the grounds you don't want to let weak recs know that poker has strategies. As NYC indicates, to me this misses the point. Many recs simply find it dull, and in addition I regard it as a sort of passive-aggressive way for some people to say "I'm clever and most of you aren't." In other words, a respect issue again.

    Along similar lines, I regard frequently breaking SOSA when you know it's a rule as being about respect. To me it says "I'm a reg here, I can get away with breaking the rules, and I'm smart enough to gain an advantage when doing so." It's not dissimilar to screwing around at showdown, slow-folding, or a player waiting for V to show first even though it was they who were called. More generally, I think anything that wastes time is profoundly disrespectful; it is burning up bits of other people's lives.

    Concerning jeff's observations about MB types, good point. Many introverts can develop a chatty persona and may not even be that quiet by nature, but man there is an energy price to pay.

    Incidentally, I suspect the views of many people on these topics could be predicted by asking what they thought of Kassouf.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 49 ✭✭
    edited May 2
    I don't like that at cash games you don't need to show your cards during an all in situation. If there is no more action in a hand then the cards should just be flipped over.

    Fun for the educated players that want to see what is being played and fun for the rec player that likes to see hands like this.

    In a 2/5 game and there is a $1k all in preflop pot what player out there wouldn't want to see the cards? Fun for all
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    I don't like that at cash games you don't need to show your cards during an all in situation. If there is no more action in a hand then the cards should just be flipped over.

    Fun for the educated players that want to see what is being played and fun for the rec player that likes to see hands like this.

    That's true. What I really don't get is that I shove, you call, and then I don't turn my cards over. Between the two of us, I have to at the end anyway! Why slow the game down? But you're right, watching the cards come out and the suspense of which hand is going to hit is enthralling for most rec players.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    there is an energy price to pay.

    Yeah. I have gotten better at quickly figuring out who's going to drain my energy, and chatting with the few that I find generally interesting. I could be having this conversation with you at the table, after all :)
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Incidentally, I suspect the views of many people on these topics could be predicted by asking what they thought of Kassouf.

    OK, you gave me something to Google.....
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,140 -
    Here's some more food for thought from someone who has been around the green felt a while. Tommy Angelo's "Live Poker Rule Book":

    https://www.tommyangelo.com/live-poker-rulebook/
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    edited May 3
    NYCRy wrote: »

    This is a very specific circumstance akin to "poker friends" discussing hands or whatever. That's fine. But I don't see how it applies to the topic. Discussing strategy at the table certainly makes poker less fun for the rec player who does not care about strategy. And plays the game for different reasons than people on poker forums



    You don't see how it pertains to the topic? Some of us find it fun. I found a medium to have fun playing some poker without impacting other's enjoyment of the game. I thought this was relevant.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,771 -
    I am a Tommy follower for sure. I was like 33 out of 36 on his rules.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    NYCRy wrote: »

    This is a very specific circumstance akin to "poker friends" discussing hands or whatever. That's fine. But I don't see how it applies to the topic. Discussing strategy at the table certainly makes poker less fun for the rec player who does not care about strategy. And plays the game for different reasons than people on poker forums



    You don't see how it pertains to the topic? Some of us find it fun. I found a medium to have fun playing some poker without impacting other's enjoyment of the game. I thought this was relevant.

    No I don't think it is relevant. I think its pretty clear Kat's question is about how to make poker fun in a general sense. He says:

    "what this really boils down to is: How do we make poker more fun for the players who are doomed to lose and from whom we profit?"

    Discussing strategy at the table would have the exact opposite effect of making poker fun for those we wish to profit from
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is a promotion to make poker more fun. Allow rabbit hunting for $1 or $2 per player (available on the turn only to everyone who folds to a bet who wants to enter). The money goes into a jackpot for high rabbit hand. For a large casino this might get paid out every hour, for a smaller game maybe at the end of the night. Dealers automatically get some percentage of prize pool. This could raise some interesting +EV situations even for strong players.
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 122 ✭✭
    Some easy ways to make poker fun without boring conversations...or should I say...a little bit more engaging. These two rules could make any game more enjoyable and a little less like waiting in the Dr. office.

    1) Say hello. Welcome to the game. This is easy. Maybe even introduce yourself to your neighbors. Imagine a game where when you sit down...even if you aren't friends...people say.."Hey Mike, how's it going"
    This requires no other conversation.

    2) Say..."Nice hand"...or " good bet. Nothing more..nothing less. Just some little noise that lets people stay engaged.


  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 183 ✭✭
    edited May 3
    @Doug Hull

    Im curious the 3 you disagree with

    I dont see whats wrong with certain seats moving the button
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,771 -
    blindraise wrote: »
    @Doug Hull

    Im curious the 3 you disagree with

    I don't see whats wrong with certain seats moving the button

    It is not that I disagree, I just am not that disciplined.

    Why is moving the button bad? Dealers have a procedure, a routine. Breaking that routine throws them off. Many people move the button silently and then confusion arises. The button is the dealer's, you would not touch the pot, I hope. The button is much the same. The exception for this is when the dealer requests you to (short dealers, with button in 2,3,7,8 for instance.) If eye contact is made, and a verbal confirmation is given as you do this, it is more acceptable. Many dealers would prefer people leave their paws off the button. The ones that prefer the help make it very clear.

    Much like randomly yielding right of way on the road, people think they are being friendly, but what they are really doing is causing confusion by breaking established rules of the road.

    The big one I violate is getting involved with disputes I am not directly involved in. I believe in being a good witness in life and at poker. It is frequent that when there is a dispute that the "victim" is a lesser experienced player that does not know how to articulate their side of the story. The "villain" is often a visiting regular from a more angle-shooty state to the west of Nevada. I absolutely step in to make sure that the "good guy's" story is correctly told.

    The number of "villains" that then turn their ire to me is near 100%. I think it is the right thing to do, though I would get less offers to go visit the parking lot if I followed the rule.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,140 -
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Here is a promotion to make poker more fun. Allow rabbit hunting for $1 or $2 per player (available on the turn only to everyone who folds to a bet who wants to enter). The money goes into a jackpot for high rabbit hand. For a large casino this might get paid out every hour, for a smaller game maybe at the end of the night. Dealers automatically get some percentage of prize pool. This could raise some interesting +EV situations even for strong players.

    That's rather ingenious.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,771 -
    The rabbit hunt: I like any promo that is optional and does not change play. I suspect this would cause players not to chase incorrectly because they could pay a buck, see it and get paid (maybe) if they hit. I could see them actually folding big draws because for a buck they would get to see it and still win a bonus.

    I respect the cleverness of it, but I dislike the alteration of play. AA cracked promos are terrible because players will slow play AA and it makes them much harder to hand read.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭
    Michael E wrote: »
    Some easy ways to make poker fun without boring conversations...or should I say...a little bit more engaging. These two rules could make any game more enjoyable and a little less like waiting in the Dr. office.

    1) Say hello. Welcome to the game. This is easy. Maybe even introduce yourself to your neighbors. Imagine a game where when you sit down...even if you aren't friends...people say.."Hey Mike, how's it going"
    This requires no other conversation.

    2) Say..."Nice hand"...or " good bet. Nothing more..nothing less. Just some little noise that lets people stay engaged.


    These are things I try do when I sit. As I'm sitting, I'll say "how's everyone doing?". I'll chat between hands with someone if they are interested or I'll participate in other people's chats if it doesn't seem like a personal conversation. I'll say nice hand when I lose. When I'm leaving the table, I'll often tell everyone "good luck". People generally respond kindly and it seems to help remove some tension from the table being that sometimes people's paychecks are up for grabs.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,771 -
    edited May 3
    Michael E wrote: »
    Some easy ways to make poker fun without boring conversations...or should I say...a little bit more engaging. These two rules could make any game more enjoyable and a little less like waiting in the Dr. office.

    1) Say hello. Welcome to the game. This is easy. Maybe even introduce yourself to your neighbors. Imagine a game where when you sit down...even if you aren't friends...people say.."Hey Mike, how's it going"
    This requires no other conversation.

    2) Say..."Nice hand"...or " good bet. Nothing more..nothing less. Just some little noise that lets people stay engaged.


    As a Northernern Midwestern boy, I am reminded of an idea: "Southern people are friendly by being friendly. Northern people are friendly by leaving you alone." I lived in Finland for a year. The country is, rightly, known for the people being quiet but friendly. I very much appreciated their ways.

    I absolutely acknowledge that I am in the minority and dislike chiter chatter.

    Let me also say this does not at all apply to people that approach me because they know me, have read my books, etc. That is not a random, useless social pleasantry but a conversation specifically targeted to me. I will gladly get up from the table and talk with any red chipper that wants to talk.

    Here is the perspective of a quiet person:

    I can intellectually see why people would consider this friendly. However, as a quiet person I find this kind of scripted pleasantry to be disingenuous and filter it as noise. It feels like when you go on a website, and some chatbot starts with similar scripted pleasantries.

    I have no idea what "Nice hand" really means. Knocking the table seems better, since "Nice hand" feels like a lie. If I do say anything of this nature it is "I think your hand is good" as I recheck my hand hoping to squeeze out a winner. This acknowledges that they won, that I am not just wasting time as I stare in disbelief at a loser, but also acknowledges that there might be a winner that I missed.

    When greeted with chatter, I don't believe for a moment that a random stranger is glad to see me, and now I am concerned they are going to want to talk. All of this sucks psychic energy from introverts like myself and I see it as theft of my limited energy. The chitter chatter is for them, not for me. Not only do I not gain from this exchange, but I am actively annoyed by it.

    If the game is short and in danger of breaking, then a greeting feels more sincere because the new player is actually bringing something of great value to the existing players. I am much more open to this, because it is actually a sincere greeting.


    Some of us just want to play cards in silence.

    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,771 -
    I am also reminded of a Vegas local that kept extensive notes on players. It was as impressive as it was creepy.

    How creepy? Very.

    As players sat down he would check their bravo name and ask them where they were from. He would quietly take their photo and his database was indexed by name, location then verified by picture.

    He would note PF ranges, notable plays, etc. There were literally thousands of players in this database. I have not seen him in years, but he showed me that he had notes on me from my tourist years. They were accurate.

    When someone is being "friendly" I think of this, and also note that it is often local "pros" (used loosely) that are probing for information to better categorize players. So now, not only are they being disingenuous, but they are trying to use social pleasantries as a disguise.

    DOYLISM OF THE DAY: "Poker is War. People pretend it is a game".
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 122 ✭✭

    [/quote]



    I have no idea what "Nice hand" really means. Knocking the table seems better, since "Nice hand" feels like a lie. If I do say anything of this nature it is "I think your hand is good" as I recheck my hand hoping to squeeze out a winner. This acknowledges that they won, that I am not just wasting time as I stare in disbelief at a loser, but also acknowledges that there might be a winner that I missed.

    [/quote]

    I should of been more clear...I meant in hands you are not in...which is the majority of the hands played.

    So someone scoops a pot or shows a winner...you can give a little congrats or encouragement.

    Vs. Myself i just groan lol

    But man...this thread is enlightening if not somewhat depressing. Perhaps some folks are making this game more stressful than it needs to be....it is after all a game, where the score is kept with money!

    As a former football player and football coach...I can't imagine being involved in sport without wanting and desiring some of the social aspects of the game. In athletics..and poker...I want to beat my friends more than my opponents...I don't see why one would want to add "banter" as a downside to a game.

    I almost feel bad for being chatty now at games...almost! Since it is only the serious players that will be annoyed and not the ones there for entertainment...my goal will to become more chatty and perhaps throw the mutes off their game :))

    JK..kind of. Nice Hand.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    blindraise wrote: »
    I dont see whats wrong with certain seats moving the button

    Moving the button is the worst. Everyone seems to feel compelled to move the button, like they'll just die if they don't touch it every time. It's the dealer's job, period. If it's a long reach I'll move it for the dealer if she asks, otherwise I never touch it.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    The rabbit hunt: I like any promo that is optional and does not change play. I suspect this would cause players not to chase incorrectly because they could pay a buck

    Yeah, that's the only downside I could think of.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    I have no idea what "Nice hand" really means.

    Theoretically it shouldn't be any different from "nice game" after a game of chess or basketball.

    Having said that, I can hardly ever bring myself to say it. On the other hand, I never utter a word or gripe after I lose a hand or suffer a bad beat either. I guess I feel that justifies me not having to say "nice hand", but maybe others don't view it that way, I don't know.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    I am also reminded of a Vegas local that kept extensive notes on players. It was as impressive as it was creepy.

    When someone is being "friendly" I think of this

    One of my worst memories is meeting a couple who were very friendly to me when I had moved to a new city and I hardly knew anyone. I liked them and I thought "how nice this is!". Long story short, they were selling Amway. I felt so betrayed after, lol Seriously, I felt bad.

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