Flop a Boat, scary runout

rickmfrickmf Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
BTN: 193 BB (VPIP: 21.69, PFR: 13.86, 3Bet Preflop: 7.63, Hands: 341)
SB: 108.5 BB (VPIP: 30.19, PFR: 18.87, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 56)
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 216 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 20.83, 3Bet Preflop: 2.94, Hands: 123)
Hero (MP): 110 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 8:heart: 8:spade:

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (10.5 BB, 3 players) 8:diamond: T:club: T:spade:
Hero checks, CO bets 5 BB, fold, Hero calls 5 BB

I check OOP multiway expecting a villain to bet. They do, i call. I don't raise as i feel like i have the board crushed.

Turn: (20.5 BB, 2 players) A:club:
Hero checks, CO checks

Would have check raised a small bet, or called a larger one, again for value.

River: (20.5 BB, 2 players) A:spade:
Hero
Now i don't really like this spot. Is it too nitty to check this down? Did not think any worse hands would call. Any Ace or Ten beats me now, and i basically have the bottom of any calling range on this board.

Say I do check, and villain bets 2/3 pot or so. Should one even call in this spot?

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    When V c-bet flop and bet turn, how many T does his range have ?

    Also: why don't you c-bet flop !?! You let so much money on the table...
  • AHallai_3AHallai_3 Sault Ste Marie, MIRed Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    I agree with Red, you left so much money on the table. It's not usually correct to say to always do something in a certain situation. However, this situation, and more importantly at this level it is 100% correct to cbet flop and turn with a decent amount (perhaps even overbet). So many worse hands will go all the way. Most players would float this flop with an A, and out of those players, most will get sticky when they hit the A on the turn. Don't be so fearful of being drawn out on, its going to happen. But make sure they pay to do so.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9
    NB: I meant "... when V stabs flop and checks turn...".
    Too late I can't edit ( @TheGameKat maybe could you?)
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You're right that having a betting range might wring a few more cents out of these guys this time, but what's the real strategy here? What happens when you are not "at this level"?
  • AHallai_3AHallai_3 Sault Ste Marie, MIRed Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    You're right that having a betting range might wring a few more cents out of these guys this time, but what's the real strategy here? What happens when you are not "at this level"?

    I’m not sure I understand your question? It’s my understanding that there isn’t a set strategy (or real strategy) for any given situation. So many different variables could change this exact same hand to be played differently.

    I simply tried to answer while making a general assumption of the player pool at that level because of lack of information on villain.

    Just looking for clarity :)

    Thanks!
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My point in one sense is this player is being strongly chastised by two posters for not cbetting and missing value, when that's not necessarily good advice. On 8TT multiway, it's hard to have a complete betting range, as all middle hands and draws from 67 to QJ can and should offer resistance. Further, if he's bluffing at half-pot, he's putting in a lot of dead money for little effect.

    Which means a general strategy for this spot is not to have a lot of bets, or bets trending toward a size of zero, anyway. Betting just the strong one ones, like 888 or a Tx, is not really a solution as the frequencies will become transparent. So one actual strategy for winning this hand with XX is that the PFR can leverage not only range cards on the turn, but the information gained when IP checks flop, and we see a turn check from the BB. So I don't support this idea:
    It’s my understanding that there isn’t a set strategy (or real strategy) for any given situation.
    So if you are a poster who races in to suggest bets here, it's on you to justify this as a strategy, and hopefully beyond "well at this level people are bad so we just bet for value" because this doesn't teach anyone anything. Actually it teaches them ideas that have to be rewound when they try to get better or move up.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10
    @persuadeo : I totally with you but on one point
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Betting just the strong one ones, like 888 or a Tx, is not really a solution as the frequencies will become transparent.
    So if you mean only betting made hands, then I'm all on board because it will be easy to read.

    But otherwise, we could bet with a rather balanced range, for example: (3x) 88, (2x) ATs, (3x) AhAx, (3x) J9s with bckd FD and (3x) 76s with bckd FD.

    (completed with a check range and ev. an underbet c-bet range)
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Alright, fair, a very low frequency alternative works and works with my comments, but creates complications of its own. More to the point, it's still not enough to admonish the OP and not say this.
  • AHallai_3AHallai_3 Sault Ste Marie, MIRed Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Are we not leveling ourselves thinking about all that at a level where it’s most likely not necessary? Isn’t it more profitable to take advantage of calling mistakes that majority of players make here? Sure, some will pick up on our cbet frequency being value heavy but It doesn’t worry me enough to change.

    And to your point about having to rewound ideas when they try to get better or move up, isn’t that what makes this game so fun? That you need to constantly learn and change along with it.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is a fair philosophy but unless OP and readers here agree it is a burden they aren't aware they are taking up.

    Good point.
  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 251 ✭✭✭
    edited May 10
    If you think about your entire range here, this is a good board to check your entire range OOP to two players. I totally disagree that this is an obvious cbet. If you cbet all your boats and trips, then when you check, you are either going to get barreled off overpair hands that check, or you will have to call overpairs in some dicey river spots. By checking here you protect those overpairs. I think having a XR strategy on flop is OK, but if you are just playing a XC XC XR line, that is a completely fine strategy, as villains probably have a nuts advantage on you here, and you are OOP.
    River is a gross runout, I don't think you should ever be value-betting here, but I might be too nitty. If it was vs. the button (who should stab wider), maybe you can XC river, but vs. CO, you can probably just call with your TX and if you have any AsKs or As9s type hands that float flop you can lead or XR river.
  • AHallai_3AHallai_3 Sault Ste Marie, MIRed Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Does it not make sense to cbet here because Villains range is supposed to hit this flop harder than we do? In a stronger game maybe we do check because of that very reason, but does that apply here? There’s so many worse hands here that will continue. I’m not a 100% cbettor, I just don’t see the edge we get by checking here in this situation.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You only gain the ev of cooling off their top, rather than all of their continuance when do this, a top which will cool itself off anyway when you check.

    Just look through the reasonings above, the question is answered. Your argument is that fish will pay off barrels with anything, which is true but slightly beside the point of having a long term strategy that can help you in any game.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file