Who shows first? Is this etiquette?

accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
In my game we have 2 players who absolutely try to avoid showing any hand if they dont have to. Normally, I dont care, but lately this has really bothered me.

If I bet or raise on the river and get called, I just immediately turn my cards over. Two players at our game will bet the river and if I call, they will wait until I show first. They do this with everyone. I'm not sure if I'm being an ass about it, but I've just decided to start making them show first if they were the last aggression. If we're both waiting for too long, I just turn my hand over and request the dealer expose their hand for the sake of holding up the game. Both of them get very irritated, but it gets to the point that I'll call with 2nd pair and they wait for me and then show their top pair/weak kicker.

I guess I dont mind when other players do it because they dont do it EVERY time! Even when they argue their point that they dont want to show their bluff, I offer them to open muck their hand, so I can muck mine also. (Our game allows that at showdown).

I just hate making a tough call and they say.... good call and hold their cards so they can see what I called with so they can muck right after.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭✭
    The casual rule is "the last aggressor shows first". If the last aggressor doesn't want to show, the hand has to be mucked.
    How it's applied on specific spots (best example is if river went check-check) may differ between poker rooms. But these are (usually) written down in the house rules.

    If you're in aw casino / poker room, just refer to the dealer for him to enforce the rule. If there is an issue, the floorman can be called. (Last option kills the atmosphere like talked in the SOSA topic, but if someone abuse then it makes sens, IMHO)

    If it's a home game, then you have to use your social and diplomatic skills to remind the rules and that everybody apply it. In the last resort, the organizer could rule.

    Now as in the parallel SOSA topic, I'd not enforce it if it happens once or twice per session. But if a player is abusing, then rules are here to be enforce and keep the game fair.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,140 -
    Agree with Red. Partly because of the SOSA thread I'm trying to loosen up a bit ruleswise, but IMO this gets us back to the topic of respect. These guys are not respecting a sensible rule, the time of others, the game, and most of all you. Having run home games myself, I feel it's really up to the host to enforce some sort of order. Unless I guess everyone finds this sort of thing "fun," oops, dammit, promised myself I wouldn't go there, oh well.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,004 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is an easy authority on almost all poker situations, created by Bob Ciaffone, who is still living and has even answered a question on rules interpretation when I needed him.

    This is from the Showdown section:

    gle5fi4nlg8n.png
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭✭
  • AnthonyBaum____AnthonyBaum____ Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    The key is to call and then call a clock, the clock is a 60 second timer that ends all actions if the timer runs out. If you call clock and they do not expose within the time allowed, their hand is mucked down and you win by default. This has worked for me in my favor about 10 years ago in San Diego's Viejas casino and again about 2 months ago in Milwaukee's Potowatami casino. Both times, the dealer enforced it more for me than I did when it came to explaining it to the floor, as they too recognize the people holding up their pay (tip) check.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    The key is to call and then call a clock, the clock is a 60 second timer that ends all actions if the timer runs out. If you call clock and they do not expose within the time allowed, their hand is mucked down and you win by default. This has worked for me in my favor about 10 years ago in San Diego's Viejas casino and again about 2 months ago in Milwaukee's Potowatami casino. Both times, the dealer enforced it more for me than I did when it came to explaining it to the floor, as they too recognize the people holding up their pay (tip) check.

    I wonder if the cost of slowing the game down long enough to get the floor called and making the game very unfriendly by doing this is worth the anecdotal experience of this working twice in 10 years.
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 122 ✭✭
    In my game we have 2 players who absolutely try to avoid showing any hand if they dont have to. Normally, I dont care, but lately this has really bothered me.

    If I bet or raise on the river and get called, I just immediately turn my cards over. Two players at our game will bet the river and if I call, they will wait until I show first. They do this with everyone. I'm not sure if I'm being an ass about it, but I've just decided to start making them show first if they were the last aggression. If we're both waiting for too long, I just turn my hand over and request the dealer expose their hand for the sake of holding up the game. Both of them get very irritated, but it gets to the point that I'll call with 2nd pair and they wait for me and then show their top pair/weak kicker.

    I guess I dont mind when other players do it because they dont do it EVERY time! Even when they argue their point that they dont want to show their bluff, I offer them to open muck their hand, so I can muck mine also. (Our game allows that at showdown).

    I just hate making a tough call and they say.... good call and hold their cards so they can see what I called with so they can muck right after.

    Thoughts?

    To be honest, it seems you aren't really clear on the expectation of who shows first and who doesn't.

    These guys seem to abide by that rule consistently...although there is an unwritten etiquette rule that when you admit you lost..the winner can just show his hand even if he called. I personally take this approach.

    For example...If I call a bet on the river, I will wait for the bettor to show his hand. That is the rule.
    However, if the bettor basically gives up...likes says.."I missed"...or "you win" I turn my hand over.

    The rule: If you call...let them show first.
    If they call you, you show first. For many players, this is as standard as the big blind and small blind.

    Unwritten rule: You can show whenever you want regardless of who called who. ( this seems to be how you are playing)
    This is fine too if you choose...but also a tell that you may be a bit inexperienced.
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    The problem with this guy saying "you win" is that he doesnt muck it. You may turn over your Ace high after he says that.... hold his cards and if he sees his pocket 2s are the winner, he gladly scoops the pot.

    I dont get sticky with the rules except with these two because they are consistent. They 100% wait for you to show unless they have a straight or better and even then they might wait.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    If it is irritating you to the point that you are not playing well, ask for a table change.

    Also, if they really do not want to show their cards, perhaps they're also going to overfold when considering a call? Just thinking out loud.

    There's nothing wrong with having the rules enforced. What you need to weigh is whether it is worth it to slow the game down by calling the floor and by making players who probably are not very good (just a hunch) feel less comfortable at the table.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,004 ✭✭✭✭✭
    just tell them to follow the rules - provided above. What is the big deal here?

    Train them, mock them, berate them, make it happen.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19
    Here's how I handle the situation, YMMV and this is subjective.

    If I have a monster, I show it quickly out of respect. For example a couple weeks ago I called a raise with 99 and got lucky: the flop was K94 he bet I called. Turn 9 he shoved I insta called (verbal to save time) and at the same time flipped my cards over and didn't really care if he flipped his or not, and certainly didn't wait for him to flip first. This is just courteous IMO.

    If someone just does this occasionally, or if it's a whale who doesn't want to be embarrassed into playing better by having to show a bluff, I overlook the rule and just show quickly if he gives any indication such as "good call" or "you're good".

    In your case it's chronic and my action is very simple. I sit there like a statue with my card protector on my cards. The message will be very clear. This is similar to dealing with toddlers. They can waste as much time as they want the first time but they will quickly learn that the game isn't moving until they show or muck. Often the host of the game, and/or the dealer, and/or the other players will chastise them for slowing down the game just in case they can't figure it out for themselves quickly enough.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    There is an easy authority on almost all poker situations

    aka Robert's Rules
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Bob Ciaffone

    aka Robert Ciaffone



  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Showdown mechanics is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. You call, they say you're good, you show, and then they check to see if their hand actually won. If not, they muck. What bothers me is that if you try to go by rule, YOU'RE the one slowing the game down.
    But... that's the way showdown is "agreed" to go down. If you watch Poker After Dark, High Stakes Poker, etc on Youtube, it's very common to the point of being the norm.
    We have all these rules throughout the hand (for good reason), don't string bet, don't splash the pot, act in turn, big chips in front, etc... but at showdown, maybe the most important part of the hand, all the rules go out the window.
    Similar story happened to me: kid never showed no matter what. Made everyone show first then mucked or flipped over a winner. I finally had it so I thought that if I am in a hand with him it will go down correctly. I bet, he min raised, I called, he says you're good, I say thanks but don't show. I'm slowly pushing my cards face down to the dealer and villain suddenly flashes a King, can you beat a King. Now I'm pissed: am I good or are we showing down? Did he think I mucked? Was that an angle? I got creamed by the table saying I was supposed to show, got called a slowroller, got creamed on this site too. Moral of the story for me? I just show my freakin cards now:)
    If I were King for a day: You show or muck when called, that's it!
    I do feel your pain but I'm over it.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Albert A wrote: »
    What bothers me is that if you try to go by rule, YOU'RE the one slowing the game down.

    In the short term (this hand), yes. In the long term, it should not.
    Albert A wrote: »
    I'm slowly pushing my cards face down to the dealer and villain suddenly flashes a King, can you beat a King. Now I'm pissed: am I good or are we showing down? Did he think I mucked? Was that an angle?

    Never do that! My cards stay right where they are under my card protector until the pot is in my possession. You should always do it that way. Or you can do it like an exchange with an evil villain. I collect pot with left hand while right hand slides cards with white chip tip on top of them. That helps speed up the game too by the way, if you just use a white chip as your card protector as well as tip.

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