2NL 6-max zoom - Very interesting river spot with small flush

PokerPascPokerPasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 222 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
SB: 107.5 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
BB: 122.5 BB
UTG: 100.5 BB
MP: 111 BB
Hero (CO): 100 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 3:spade: 4:spade:

fold, MP calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, fold, MP calls 3 BB

Flop: (9.5 BB, 2 players) 2:spade: 8:diamond: J:spade:
MP checks, Hero bets 4.5 BB, MP raises to 9 BB, Hero calls 4.5 BB

Turn: (27.5 BB, 2 players) K:heart:
MP checks, Hero checks

River: (27.5 BB, 2 players) 6:spade:
MP bets 5 BB, Hero raises to 16 BB, MP raises to 27 BB, Hero calls 11 BB


I felt villain was block betting me on the river and I felt there was more value to be made here, so I raised pretty small, hoping for a call, planning to fold to a 3bet.

Villain did 3bet, but he did so very small, so I decided I couldn't fold to a 3bet that small and ended up calling.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • obliviusoblivius San FranciscoRed Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
    I'm probably flatting the river... weak flush and all. I get what you're saying for sure about the sizing. Maybe he thought that was the biggest he could get value from so kept it small. Raising just opens you up to potential grief. His flop raise was a weird size too so anything is possible.... RESULT??
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    I'd fold pre...I don't see the value in iso raising with 34s without absolute position.
  • PokerPascPokerPasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
    People are folding way too much in 6-max zoom, so it's +EV to steal more? Even from CO and early position?
    I also consider myself to have a decent post-flop edge over most players at this level, so I don't mind playing a few more hands.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    edited May 19
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    People are folding way too much in 6-max zoom, so it's +EV to steal more? Even from CO and early position?
    I also consider myself to have a decent post-flop edge over most players at this level, so I don't mind playing a few more hands.

    It's better to open up your stealing range from the BTN - not necessarily from the CO. Regardless of anything else, though: 34s shouldn't be in your CO RFI range or a combo that you iso with.
  • obliviusoblivius San FranciscoRed Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
    34s may be an iso hand from CO very dependent on what type of player (or stats) MP is AND the tendencies of the 3 players behind. Almost always a 6 max RFI CO hand..Don't be too quick to have super rigid ranges. Gotta be fluid depending again on who'd left to act etc.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    PokerPasc - Don't post threads and ask questions if you yourself are just going to mark "disagree" under my responses. That would be someone else's job, not yours since you're the one who asked the question. How can you disagree with something that you yourself are not sure of? Seems like you want someone to concur with the way you played a hand, and aren't necessarily seeking outside opinions.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭✭✭
    On the river there is a key concept that you can understand and employ. While yes it is a blocking bet, all bets are just prices and can be wisely created or bet at an equilibrium. In other words, a good "block" will account for and in fact be protected by some induction hands which can bc or br. This means that when you raise even a innocuous looking blocking bet, some of your combos have to be shed or you will be misconstructed otherwise.

    So what hands should raise? I don't think all your flushes should. The reason is if they are called or raised you end up with the wrong hands, as you are not really raising for bluff or much thin value, given that the majority of the blocks are bf. Further, you apparently have more weak flushes than others in this spot, so that means you can distribute their actions differently.

    While there are some interesting blocking effects with 34ss, they don't really block the hands that can lead induce call, such as the middle flushes. The a3s and a4s is blocked, yes, but that doesn't help much given that most of the suited aces are going to flat, or even worse for you, the wheels might be 3b pre anyway.

    The risk of block betting is still a wager and a risk. It succeds if well constructed and forces you to raise fewer hands, and allows you to raise more if not. (I'd rather not go down the "but this is x stake" road, note, as then basically anything is possible and there is no conversation.)

    To return to paragraph 3, yes, there may be some value in turning the hand into a bluff but that is surely small versus this sizing, which helps create easier calls and appropriate calls, not harder ones, which removes some of the ev of your bluff. He did not do this and there is still a good chance you won this hand, i suppose.

    Finally, if this player were holding the nut blocker, and wanted to create this action, he could or should be raising you much bigger, and now your error rate can go up and be denied showdown unneccessarily.

    Obviously this is off the top of my head and some calculations or a solve on the river would be interesting to see. Thanks for a great hand.
  • PokerPascPokerPasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
    I feel like I'm allowed to disagree with whatever I want.
    There's no need to get offended because I don't agree with you.

    Check out this chart: https://redchippoker.com/infographic-pre-flop-ranges/
    It clearly lists 43s as an open from CO
    If you add that I'm playing way looser than these charts, it becomes a really obvious open.

    I've also explained you why I'm opening this hand and you just chose to ignore what I said and serve me your (imo bad) advice as if it's a generally accepted truth.

    If you had posted something like: "I wouldn't open this hand from the CO" or "I think it's better not to open this hand from the CO" that both would've been fine.

    But you're claiming you KNOW what is right and what is not, but you don't, if you're folding these hands in these spot, you're most likely a nit, which is probably losing you a lot of value and it might even make you a losing player in online 6-max games.

    Also my raise was not intended as an iso raise at all.
    I've just got a decent hand, one that I'd love to play against someone who limps all day long. Since limping most likely means they're not a very good player, meaning they'll make mistakes that'll make me money.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    edited May 21
    Ok, Dude, do whatever you want then but the fact is you're playing 2nl and struggling so clearly you don't know very much and should be happy to get any advice at all. Following Ed Miller's charts for $1/2 live doesn't translate to 2nl online. Those ranges are WAY too loose for almost every online game you'll ever play in. But 2nl? 34s RFI from CO is not profitable.

    I'm by no means a know it all. I have tons of my own leaks to work on but I definitely spent enough time @ 2nl to know that this combo is not a standard CO RFI.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
    Regardless of whether or not XX is a standard RFI or not in Y position, statements of absolute certainty should necessarily draw scrutiny.

    I would not raise 34s in the CO without some decent stats on the players behind me. If I knew BTN was nitty and 3 bets were unlikely from the blinds, I would be more inclined to raise.

    However, if OP wants to play looser there are worse hands to do it with than 34s in the CO. Some charts will include this in a CO range. Some will not. Basing the discussion around absolutes of "I definitely spent enough time @ 2nl to know that this combo is not a standard CO RFI" is framing an opinion as a source of truth.

    And this is not meant to prolong a discussion around whether we should raise 34s in the CO, but more meant to note that there are few absolutes in this game and that we should approach our opinions with less dogmatism.
  • PokerPascPokerPasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
    Would love some more comments on the river play.
  • andreicosandreicos Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    I feel like the river raise is really close. Imo it depends mostly on how this Villain would play his sets. He could maybe take this line with JJ/88/22: 9 combos, which is most likely more than his flush combos. Then it could be fine to raise for value.

    When he raises you're probably beat, but again he makes it so small that I'd probably have called too.

    I feel like the best line depends a lot on the general tendencies of 2NL players.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
    I am just going to call. After the check on the turn, I find it unlikely that V has any sets in his range. I don't think he has that many on the flop to x/r anyway. V almost certainly would not limp call with JJ. Some V might limp call with 22 and maybe 88, I suppose but I think 6 handed it is very unlikely he has a set on the flop.

    When he does not bet the turn, I find it unlikely he would now give a free card with a set, as well.

    So when we get to the river, what worse hand calls our raise here? There are no worse flushes and I think it unlikely V has a set here as stated. No straight possibility so we would have to be getting value from 2 pair.
  • PokerPascPokerPasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
    Isn't that enough to raise here?
    We're getting value from sets, two pairs and people who can't fold TP

    If we get raised we know we're beat (or villain is bluffing) so we can easily fold, unless villain min-raises us like this one did.

    I feel like I'd be missing a lot of value for not raising here. Especially since the bet looks and feels like a block bet. Meaning villain most likely has a good hand he wants to get to showdown with, but is not willing to pay too much with.

    We have a villain here who limp/called pre, is check/raising the flop, then checking the turn and then making a tiny bet on the river.
    This villain is obviously not a good player. That makes me believe he is very capable of making huge calling mistakes on the river here.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    Dude - You could have put away 3 or 4 10nl stacks with the amount of time and effort you've put into this thread.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yes, i think what is happening here is that you are playing against a pure novice and your exploits are fine.
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 281 ✭✭✭
    edited May 23
    I would be calling the river but it doesn't feel great. Do you remember if he snap 3b the river? I think the faster he 3b the more likely he is to be bluffing...

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