What The Heck Was That? Angling?

Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
First, I'm not steaming about this, just curious. Was this guy angling me? Live cash $1/$2 NLHE. Hero UTG $240ish with 66 raise to $10, MP $ unknown calls $10, CO villain $150ish calls $10. Flop: Ace d, 6 s, 9 d /$30 in pot. I lead $20 targeting Ace face and protecting against flush draw, MP folds, CO calls $20. Heads up to the Turn: 3 s /$70 in pot. Now this is where it happens. I look at villain then I look down at my chips and start cutting out a bet. Villain pushes his stack ($120ish) about 6 inches off the rail towards the middle and says,"That's all you can bet." I looked at the dealer and said, "Angling?" (I regret saying that). Dealer shrugs, "Cash game." Ok. Villain says, "You were looking at my chips, I just wanted to show you what I had." Now I'm flustered. I'm pretty experienced but I haven't seen much of that kind of stuff. We all know the game has a flow to it and when the flow is interrupted it's kind of jarring. That was very jarring to me. Anyway, I almost checked but something said he wanted me to check so instead I bet $50, villain calls $50. River bricks, $170 in pot. I shove $160ish (awful bet size, draws calls nothing but Ace face may have paid off a value bet) villain insta folds showing K 10 suited diamonds!! Dealer shuffles and I say to villian, "Sorry about that, I was confused by what you did." He says, "No problem but I am the last person to angle shoot anyone." My mind is racing, I've never seen this guy before but everyone seems to know and like him. I'm not angry but all I can think is this guy made an aggressive physical movement out of turn to try to get me to not bet so he could have a free shot at the nut flush! I believe that's chapter 3 in the poker angler's handbook. I wanted to say all that but I just kept my mouth shut. I don't particularly care one way or the other that he did that. I'm pretty confident in my game and make up so I'm just chalking this up to gained experience. I posted this to get your thoughts. Most of you have more experience/knowledge than I do. Thanks


  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭✭
    It doesn't look at angling to me.

    So first of all, such situation cannot happen with a "betting line" or a "courtesy line". Anything happening before the line isn't in play. Moving chips, even to the line by looking angrily to another play, is just fine (to the rules).

    Now if there is no line, it's a bit more blurry since the rule used is "motion forward". In such scenario, moving chips forward could be consider as a bet / can consider the chips are in play (even if moved out of turn).

    Now that's said and considering you didn't write down if there was a betting/courtesy line or not - very often at cash games there is a line - , regularly chips aren't clearly visible on a (low stakes) tables.
    Sometimes the player didn't stack them properly or he is hiding them with hands/arms/other - plus the time it's hard to see anything between seat 1 and 8/9 because of the dealer himself. So regularly the question is ask "how much do you have in play?".

    Hence, to me, Villain (mostly) wanted to give you a relevant information before you even asked for it.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20
    That said, you should have shoved turn.
  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
    Ok thanks Red.
  • Michael EMichael E Red Chipper Posts: 122 ✭✭
    No, not an angle. You looked strong...Villain was weak. It was definitely a physical tell with him trying to let you know he is going to call a big bet...thereby reducing the amount of time you bluff him. It's often a sign of weakness.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,784 -
    edited May 21
    Not an angle, it is unclear, but I think he was showing that you covered. His words are completely consistent with this.

    Your final bet was not $160, it was whatever the effective stack was ($70)

    Any angling was purely in your mind, but you played exactly as was reasonable.

    I see anger like this at the table, frequently. Inevitably it is new players that don't understand the nuances of the game that react explosively. You, mostly, kept your cool and came to ask what really happened. Well done. Next hand.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 295 ✭✭✭
    The fact that you said you looked at him leads me to believe he was genuinely trying to let you see his stack. If someone looks at me, I try to ensure my stack is visible, since that is usually what they're looking for. His statement was oddly phrased though.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You'll never know the truth but

    1) some subtle things that may gain some miniscule edge can be called angling or not yet not be illegal.
    2) handling them stoically is far better than overreacting. I regret just about every one of my reactions to real or perceived angles, as they take away from the matter at hand and can be mistakenly rude.
    3) strong players rarely do anything unseemly so worrying about chip movers and shakers and talkers isn't really a long term concern
  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
    Thanks a lot. Appreciate the input. That's what I was looking for. As a caveat, the guy turned out to be the nicest guy on the table, showing pics of his grandson at prom and stuff. There was no residual contention or anything between us, I was just curious of your thoughts.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭✭✭
    At the time, when you asked if he was angling, what did you think the angle was? I don't see one here, unless you thought he was trying to get you to think his chips were "over the line" or whatever the rule is at that casino.
  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
    Thanks Jeff. I blurted it out and as I said in the post, I regretted saying it. At the time I felt that physically moving his chips at the pot out of turn was a bit of an angle (not illegal). I felt he was trying to get me to act in an optimal way for him, in this case check and give him a free look at the flush draw. There is no betting line there. This post was more out of curiosity than angst. Everyone is basically saying the same thing and I'm ok with that. It flustered me for about 7 seconds but I feel I was thinking clearly when I chose to bet. It didn't tilt me at all, was just curious about your thoughts on this.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Albert A wrote: »
    At the time I felt that physically moving his chips at the pot out of turn was a bit of an angle (not illegal). I felt he was trying to get me to act in an optimal way for him, in this case check and give him a free look at the flush draw.

    Yeah, I think that goes more into the category of an intentional tell rather than angle. This happens all the time and there's nothing at all wrong with it. Just trying to get you to act in an optimal way for him is not necessarily an angle. It's more or less the same as bluffing, which also isn't an angle of course.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,400 -
    My takeaway from all this is that it's probable the opponent was actually trying to be helpful, but that we encounter so much scumbaggery in live poker, OP not unreasonably assumed ulterior motives.
    Moderation In Moderation

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