How to adjust to a game where cbetting almost never works?

PokerPascPokerPasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
I'm playing 2NL 6-max zoom on PokerStars and I've noticed cbets are not getting any respect at all.
My flop Cbet success rate is only 36%

I constantly see people calling with only a backdoor draw, one overcard, bottom pair, ...

I know the obvious adjustment, cbet less often, value bet more.

But what does that imply for preflop decisions.
Do I have to play tighter? Should I 3bet less often as a bluff? Should I 3bet less often for value with hands like AK, AQ?

I'm kinda feeling like every time I cbet I get called and every time I hit a decent hand ppl fold.

Comments

  • andreicosandreicos Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    Well when you do have a good hand, you block their calling hands so you will actually get called more when you are bluffing.

    If you're Cbetting 1/2 pot then you only need 33% folds to BE, so 36% is great. Even if you're betting 2/3 pot and you need 40% to BE, you will still have some equity with your bluffs so again you're doing good.

    Try to bluff cbet more on dry boards like K27r, and less on wet boards that favour the callers range like T87.

    Yes the adjustment you could make is to be more value oriented overall, and to focus more on getting value from second best hands, as opposed to folding better hands.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 837 ✭✭✭
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    I'm kinda feeling like every time I cbet I get called and every time I hit a decent hand ppl fold.

    Then it's hard to believe you're truly reading these forums and studying the CORE/PRO material. You should know why that is. Right now, even @ just 2NL, you're being exploited by better players.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭✭
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    I'm playing 2NL 6-max zoom on PokerStars and I've noticed cbets are not getting any respect at all.
    My flop Cbet success rate is only 36%

    I constantly see people calling with only a backdoor draw, one overcard, bottom pair, ...

    I know the obvious adjustment, cbet less often, value bet more.

    But what does that imply for preflop decisions.
    Do I have to play tighter? Should I 3bet less often as a bluff? Should I 3bet less often for value with hands like AK, AQ?

    I'm kinda feeling like every time I cbet I get called and every time I hit a decent hand ppl fold.

    More information is needed to properly assess the issue. What is your c-bet frequency? How many hands is this recorded over? What is your turn c-bet frequency?
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Joseph F wrote: »
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    I'm kinda feeling like every time I cbet I get called and every time I hit a decent hand ppl fold.

    Then it's hard to believe you're truly reading these forums and studying the CORE/PRO material. You should know why that is. Right now, even @ just 2NL, you're being exploited by better players.

    Both of you have already been warned by the mods. I would suggest to stop nonsense like this ASAP or you'll be banned sooner rather than later.
  • PokerPascPokerPasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    More information is needed to properly assess the issue. What is your c-bet frequency? How many hands is this recorded over? What is your turn c-bet frequency?

    2k hands playing 30/25 with a 6.6 3bet

    cbet F is now at 66% total, it was higher at the start and I'm seriously cutting back on cbetting now since I noticed it's not working as often as it should

    cbet flop success rate is 35%, I usually cbet 70% pot and on very dry boards (like paired boards) I cbet 50% (which honestly never seems to work)

    cbet turn is 36% and success is 32% (9/28)
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭✭
    If people are calling your c-bets too wide, it's important to note that they will be bringing too many hands to the turn, where they will often have trouble dealing with double/triple barrels. I would say the adjustment is too recognize an overly weak range and attack on later streets when the board is advantageous to do so. Of course, you need to be careful not to get carried away with this idea because your late street frequencies can get out of line quickly.

    As for what this means for your preflop game, when choosing which hands to raise, do so with the thinking that you will often be playing multiple streets and choose hands that can perform well and potentially run into equity as the hand progresses.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,755 -
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    My flop Cbet success rate is only 36%

    I constantly see people calling with only a backdoor draw, one overcard, bottom pair, ...

    What is a successful c-bet?

    Is it getting a fold? If I c-bet with middle set on A92r, a fold is not success.

    Getting called by presumably weak hands sounds like an opportunity to me.

    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • PokerPascPokerPasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
    Not sure tbh, it's listed like that in Pokertracker 4.
    I assume it's a success when ppl fold.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,755 -
    You seem worried about a metric you can't define and don't know the target range for.

    I think finding those things out is a first step.

    It is like saying: "my VPIP is 16%, I don't know what it is, how do I get it to 100%?"
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭✭
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    I constantly see people calling with only a backdoor draw, one overcard, bottom pair, ...

    I know the obvious adjustment, cbet less often, value bet more.
    If the float too often / with too weak hands, then:
    - You can expand your value range (merged range)
    - You can make them fold on later street with 2 or 3 barrels
    - You can c-bet for a bigger price

    Restricting your c-bet % on solely strong made hands will make you lose value and make it easy to play against you (you'll be faced up)
  • PokerPascPokerPasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 18 ✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    You seem worried about a metric you can't define and don't know the target range for.

    I think finding those things out is a first step.

    It is like saying: "my VPIP is 16%, I don't know what it is, how do I get it to 100%?"

    This is not what is happening though.

    I'm worried because I'm noticing ppl are calling my cbets a lot with nothing, no overcards, no draws, only backdoor draws, or just one overcard, ...
    I'm constantly losing pots against people who shouldn't have been in the hand anymore after my flop cbet (at least I would never be)

    Then I used the PT4 metric which I'm pretty sure I understand correctly to prove my point.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,755 -
    You can not change how they play. You can change how you play.

    I am resting for the WSOP in the family lake house in Michigan. Playing in a "match stack" $1-$3 game that honestly plays bigger than many $5-$10 games in Vegas. $2500 is short stacked in this game. every stack is entirely in play, not just growing cobwebs. The play is very much like what you are describing.

    My game is nothing like my play in a nitty passive Las Vegas $1-$3 where $1500 is the big stack and the average stack hovers around $400.

    Them calling with small equity is a massive opportunity. My play is utterly transparent: if I bet, I have a hand. This marvelously simple and stupid strategy is optimal against that field. I just fire up an audiobook and commute to valuetown.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • wescrowescro Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    You did mention that you were playing $2NL, correct? In my experience, so many of the players at the micros will just call down far too often, so that could be part of the "problem". However, if that's it, then it's not really a problem, because over the long-run you will make money if they chase.

    You mentioned that you don't get calls when you hit though, which is concerning. In general, you don't want to always bet into hands in which you block them having anything that they can continue with. Instead of C-betting with pure bluffs, try c-betting with hands that have some (but not a ton of) equity (like middle pairs) and with your draws. Check back where you totally miss and balance by also checking back when you hit big (TPTK or better.) It's not an ideal or complete strategy, but it should be more than enough to "balance" at the micros.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,066 -
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    I'm playing 2NL 6-max zoom on PokerStars and I've noticed cbets are not getting any respect at all.
    My flop Cbet success rate is only 36%

    I constantly see people calling with only a backdoor draw, one overcard, bottom pair, ...

    I know the obvious adjustment, cbet less often, value bet more.

    But what does that imply for preflop decisions.
    Do I have to play tighter? Should I 3bet less often as a bluff? Should I 3bet less often for value with hands like AK, AQ?

    I'm kinda feeling like every time I cbet I get called and every time I hit a decent hand ppl fold.

    Is there any empirical evidence for this beyond "feeling?" As @andreicos points out there is a small blocking effect that works in this direction, but if people are calling you down with nothing, one wonders what and how they're folding when you have it.

    What's the average VPIP/PFR for these tables? You're playing very loose. I'd be surprised if this happened at the micros, but opponents may simply be reacting to your weak range.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 951 ✭✭✭✭
    When i first started playing NL...i watched vids by Dusty Schmidt. Leather ass.....one of the biggest winning players on line of all time....

    At that time dusty preached raising any two cards in position if somenone limped...limpers bad...isolate..often

    In my loose low stake games i tried it and got killed c betting......

    So i asked dusty the same thing what do you do against players who dont fold.....

    His answer just value bet them....check bdhind and take the free cards otherwise...


  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,755 -
    PokerPasc wrote: »

    I'm kinda feeling like every time I cbet I get called and every time I hit a decent hand ppl fold.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias?wprov=sfla1
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,664 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    I'm kinda feeling like every time I cbet I get called and every time I hit a decent hand ppl fold.

    First of all, I think we need to determine what exactly a c-bet is. You seem to be equating it with a bluff, which it is not necessarily.

    a) you raise with KK, get called, then bet the flop.

    b) you raise with AK, get called, then whiff the flop and bet again.

    c) you raise 32o, get called, then whiff the flop and bet again.

    d) you raise 77, get called, flop a set and bet again.

    All of those are c-bets. Only c) is a bluff because it can't possibly be the best hand. a) and d) are obviously value bets. Since most people miss most flops, b) is also basically a value bet.

    So saying every time you c-bet you get called can normally be a good thing, and we can't be saying c-bets "don't work". Maybe what you mean is bluffing doesn't work.

    I'm making some simplistic assumptions. You often don't just get called in one spot. But the obvious answer is this: if people never fold in your game, then only bet when you think you have the best hand (or more accurately, the most equity). This will include many c-bets.

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