Hand Review

Steve MSteve M Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
Game = $1/$2 - 9 Players

Sunday Afternoon on Memorial Day Weekend. Mix of Regulars and fresh faces.

Hero = 30-45 minutes into session. Up about $50 from nothing to memorable. Won one hand at showdown with A,Qo after raising out of the SB. Won a couple of other hands with a PFR or with a C-Bet. Don't think I have much of an image to work off of for anyone else at the table.

Villain = Solid, solid regular. Have played with him once or twice and always has a big stack. Critical thinker of the game who can beat first timers & regulars. Was called for a 2-2 PLO game but turned it down.

Effective Stack = ~$350 (Me)

Hero = :As :Js

UTG = Folds
UTG+1 (Villain) = Raises $10
2 x Folds
MP = Calls $10
2 x Folds
SB (Hero) = Calls $10
BB = Folds

At this point, the table was a lot of limped pots with maybe 3 of us who would raise pre-flop from any position. Normally, I would look into a $10 PFR as weak but from this player, I think it was more of an adjustment knowing he had an edge on most players. I considered 3-betting but he was from an early position & I would be OOP for the hand so only elected to call.

Flop = $32

:Ts :7c :5s

SB (Hero) = Checks
UTG+1 (Villain) = Bets $16
MP = Folds
SB (Hero) = Raises $45
Villain = Thinks for 25-30 seconds - Calls $45

This was a standard CR for me. In terms of balance, I should have more nutted hands on this board then him. I have all pocket 5's, pocket 7's & pocket 10's (I'm most likely flatting pre-flop with pocket 10's). I don't have any 2 pairs though which hurts but I don't expect him to have 5's or 7's very often. He had limped into enough pots to make me think I can discount those hands. Once he calls, I'm putting him on a big pair. I block Aces & Jacks so leaning more towards Queens or Kings, maybe pocket 8's or 9's. I don't think he floats with two big cards unless it's specifically K,Q of spades.

Turn = $122

:Kc

Hero = Bets $75
Villain = Calls $75

The King gives me some additional outs and I'm going to keep firing here. I would bet all of my sets so I'm going to keep betting my draws to stay balanced. I'm not in love with my bet size here but I was trying to set up a pot sized river shove. I'm not good at the table at breaking down bet sizing to set up a pot sized river bet so any helpful insight there is appreciated. With the King giving me more equity, I thought going closer to 2/3 pot made sense & would leave me a pot sized bet on the river.

When he called, I narrowed him down to jacks, queens or aces. I discounted Kings since one hit & because I expect pocket Kings to raise this turn. If I'm repping a set or a draw, I don't see much value in pocket kings just calling my turn bet. I'm discounting aces because it took him a while to call my flop raise & I felt he was genuinely thinking about what to do.

My plan now is to shove most rivers. I'm looking to shove a complete blank or if I hit the nuts.

At the time, if an Ace or Jack comes, I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to do though in hindsight I'm probably checking.

River = $272

:7h

Hero = ?

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭✭
    Don't you think that betting turn is speewy?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can never make that much of an error when your strategy is to simply press high equity, but that leaves you vulnerable to its consequences, which are issues on later streets. What do you think about the qualities of your hand when you are about to jam the river?
  • Steve MSteve M Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
    Don't you think that betting turn is speewy?

    @Red During the hand, I had the blinders on a little bit & never really thought about possibly checking. After reviewing the hand later on, I think there is some merit in checking this turn. Because I picked up some equity with the King, I don't think check-calling to realize that equity is all that bad & the villain is going to check behind some percent of the time, so I get to the river somewhat cheap. I don't think this is a great check-raise candidate here but I could be wrong, though I'm worried that may fall into Fancy Play Syndrome. When in doubt, I'll usually leans toward the aggressive play but I can see this being close. Would you prefer a check-call over a lead here?
    What do you think about the qualities of your hand when you are about to jam the river?

    @persuadeo Hate 'em. Once the 7 pairs the board, it cuts down on my value combos significantly since there is only one combo of pocket 7's left. At the time, I knew this was one of the worst cards for me to continue my story with & felt a river jam would now be weighted more towards bluffs.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭✭
    Steve M wrote: »
    Don't you think that betting turn is speewy?

    @Red During the hand, I had the blinders on a little bit & never really thought about possibly checking. After reviewing the hand later on, I think there is some merit in checking this turn. Because I picked up some equity with the King, I don't think check-calling to realize that equity is all that bad & the villain is going to check behind some percent of the time, so I get to the river somewhat cheap. I don't think this is a great check-raise candidate here but I could be wrong, though I'm worried that may fall into Fancy Play Syndrome. When in doubt, I'll usually leans toward the aggressive play but I can see this being close. Would you prefer a check-call over a lead here?
    Your HAND pick up equity. What about your range ?
  • MarAmaMarAma Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    Is this hand just me being unlucky at the time or did I play it wrong?

    Deepstack tournament at casino, buy in 500USD

    Blinds 500-1000 (BB Ante 1000)
    Hero stack 86000
    UTG+2 (Villain) 56000 Stack
    Button 63000 Stack

    Hero in BB

    Villain raises to 3500 Button Calls Hero 8s 8d in BB raises to 9500 both Villain and button call

    Flop
    8h 10h 10s

    Hero CB 22000 (74% of pot) Villain calls, Button Folds.

    Turn Kc
    Hero goes all inn, villain calls and shows Kh Jh

    River 10c

    Villain wins with Kings full of 10s.

    How could I have played this hand different? Did I play it wrong or was I just plain out unlucky against a fish running good?
  • Steve MSteve M Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
    Your HAND pick up equity. What about your range ?

    @Red I'm not quite sure this card improves my C/R range too much. Since I am C/R'ing with the A,J of spades, I could be doing the same with some :Ks flush draws in which case I would improve to a pair now. I think it's a better card for my range then villain's though since I don't think he is calling my C/R with just two overcards (ie A,K) and this would only hit specifically pocket kings for the villain. I think your point may be this card is actually better for my range since it should improve me to some medium strength hands & in which case, I would look to check most turns?

    I have to be honest, your simple 4 word question has had me stumped for 2 days lol. I appreciate you trying to teach me to fish rather than just giving me the fish though (no poker puns intended).
    What is the purpose of your 3-bet, and why did you choose that very small sizing?

    @LeChiffre The checkraise here was because I felt like I have nut advantage on this board & a big enough stack to put pressure on the top of villain's range. This raise was more on the smaller size but I did choose this size for two reasons.

    1. I didn't think I had to raise that big to get him off of two overcards. I wouldn't expect him to continue without some piece of this board, with his weakest holdings being an overpair. Because I block so many of the flush draws he cold have, I thought he either had to have an overpair to the flop or 2 overcards. Because he raised from early position, I don't see him having many straight draws or sets here. A smaller C/R size gets him off of overcards & sets me up to triple barrel on most runouts if he has a big pair.

    2. I was trying to figure out how to set up a pot sized river shove. In my head, I was thinking $45, if called, puts ~$120 in the middle, which I can then go for $70-$80 which would make the pot ~$270-$280 and I should have around $220-$230. I'm saying 'should' & 'could' because that was my literal thinking at the table. I'm not very good at figuring out how to size my bets correctly in a situation like this when considering C/R'ing a flop or 3-Betting PF. I struggle to figure out how to bet the flop & turn correctly so as not to give great odds but still set up the correct pot sized river bet.
  • theagent77theagent77 Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Nice hand report.

    Have you considered the possibility that Villain made set on flop? He could have thought those 30 seconds being unsure whether re-raising or calling. If you shoved the river, I think Villain would call only with a hand that beat you
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭✭
    Steve M wrote: »
    Your HAND pick up equity. What about your range ?

    @Red I'm not quite sure this card improves my C/R range too much. Since I am C/R'ing with the A,J of spades, I could be doing the same with some :Ks flush draws in which case I would improve to a pair now. I think it's a better card for my range then villain's though since I don't think he is calling my C/R with just two overcards (ie A,K) and this would only hit specifically pocket kings for the villain. I think your point may be this card is actually better for my range since it should improve me to some medium strength hands & in which case, I would look to check most turns?

    I have to be honest, your simple 4 word question has had me stumped for 2 days lol. I appreciate you trying to teach me to fish rather than just giving me the fish though (no poker puns intended).

    What is your c-r range on flop ? Write us down all your range.
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    @Red

    Your post have definitely helped me out, and I value your perspective but I'm not understanding your advice in this one. Help me to understand how the turn bet is even close to being spewy. Hero should have all sets (9 combos). If he check raises all of his sets, he needs 9 bluff combos on the turn. If he has four combos of 86s, and four combos of 89s, he still needs one more combo. I wouldn't even double barrel the straight draws that didn't pick up equity, but let's assume that hero would. Why would the nut flush draw that turns a combo draw be a bad candidate to be the last combo that hero double barrels with? At the very least it's close imo.

    I don't see how it's a spew at all.

    OP, I would shut the bluff down on the river. The board pairing is bad for you. If he has an overpair, he is now never folding two pair.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 30
    What does V called flop with ? Probably a made hand : overpairs, TP (?), sets. Do you see anything else?

    :KC: doesn't help Hero's SB flop c-r range. There is no K in this range, except if he puts hands like KsJs - do we c-r with that? Even, there are what so ever maybe only 3 KsXs combos possible for Hero, at best if he c-r with all them (otherwise H is spewy/too loose preflop as well).
    So :KC: is not really a scary card. When it hits the turn, it's very probable that any hands V calls flop with is going to continue against a turn bet. Does V eve fold QQ or JJ if we bet turn ?
    Even worst: Villain can have KK, and will now never ever fold this combo, even if :SPADE: completes.

    If there is no of very little FE, then we should reduce our bluffing range, because why bluffing if V is calling often ?

    Also once on turn, we have now:
    - a hand which have neither SDV (V called with better than A high) nor is a hand we are happy to bet/fold with (too strong).
    - In a situation where we have little FE.
    - In a situation where it will be harder to extract value when :SPADE: spikes since FD is the most obvious hand to c-r with and V has position (=little or no IO).

    Betting the turn seems spewy, we throw a lot of aggressive dead money in the pot with a middle hand and allow V to play perfectly.

    I could be on board for betting turn on another turn card (like on :7H: ) or with a range without AsJs. In this exact situation, I'm not a fan and find it spewy.
    (I'd but not fold either)


    ***
    Also I'd not c-r with AsJs in the first place - that's also why I asked @Steve M his c-r range (and the fact that Kc doesn't help him).

    We should c-r polarized aka with strong made hands as well with bluff, being with great equity (strong draws) and/or without SDV. With nut FD and 2 overs, we still have a decent hand on flop, esp. if UTG is able to bluff with FD or bet TP. AsJs is not super strong, nor is weak.
    I think we have more fitted combos to c-r with, like for example 8s7s (FD + pair + blocking middle set+ 2 bckd SD), As6s (nut FD + 1 over + bckd SD), As7s (nut FD + pair + blocking set) or 6c5c (almost no SDV, hidden bckd draws, blocking bottom set).

    I also think there are way better IO - getting paid - against an overpair when we hit trips (with 6c5c hitting a 5) that when we hit a better TP (AJ hitting A).
    If we c-r - bet - bet and river an A with AJ or river a 5 with 65, I think V pays more often on the 5 than A : he can put you more easily on nut FD (and fold to an A) than on a 5X combo.

    Last but not least, even as nut FD AsJs is a bad combo as we block any AxJs combos and the board blocks XsTs combos.
    Also if V is able to c-bet FD, there will be only K high FD at best, so it will be an easy bet/fold. On the other side, if we let V keep firing his FD, we find ourselves in a very nice spot once :SPADE: completes. We have great IO when both players hit :SPADE: . So I wouldn't try to make V fold his bluffs (FD).
    There would be flop where I'd be on board to c-r AsJs, not this one.
  • PapaGiorgioPapaGiorgio Red Chipper Posts: 79 ✭✭
    @Red Thanks for the insight. I would have probably made the same flop c-r based on the strength of a nut flush draw. I wouldn't have c-r the hands you suggested because, in my mind, I don't think they are strong enough. But, you demonstrated that these are exactly the hands the c-r because they benefit from FE and are more likely to get paid if they hit.
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 197 ✭✭
    edited May 30
    In OP you gave a very short description of V, but left no comments on his range. What kind of hands have you seen him show up with? Can he have 68s, J6s, or is 89s/JQs the only option as far as draws go? Is he inclined to semibluff? bluff air? Or is he generally a value bettor?

    Its tempting to play nut draws aggressively, the question is not will your draw hit, but do you have the BR to play a style that incorporates late streets with little equity? Also, your flop c-r sizing looks like it wants a call, being that V is given such great odds. That said, what brought you to choose your sizing? What do you want to call? What do you want to fold? Whats the probability given V's image and line that he will continue?

    Another thought, youre drawing to the NFD and you consider the possibility V may be drawing to a (backdoor)flush as well. Even if he has 1 spade, how does this affect your equity, especially after the King hits turn. These are all questions you need to ask yourself when considering an equity-driven line.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    Pot sized river.

    You need a 4x pot stack ott to pot turn and river. You have 122 out of 295 (120 out of 300) which is 2ishx the pot so if you bet 2/4 pot ott you will have a psb for the river.


  • Steve MSteve M Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭
    @Red You're last post spelled out very clear & concise where you are coming from & I appreciate you taking the time & effort for it. Right when I think I'm getting a hang of this silly game, I'm reminded of the cold hard truth :)

    I have to put some critical thought to some of the points you made & more work in away from the table but I think I'm on board with everything you are saying. I may disagree on some things but I'm nitpicking & the overall idea you presented is solid.

    Thanks for the help!
    Hero gives up & checks.

    Villain checks behind & wins the pot with pocket Jacks
  • AceBalaAceBala Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    @Red Man, I am amazed by your detailed Hand analysis here. This gave me more contextual help to put the core lessons.. When I go through the core some lessons stick to my mind ( Like the 70%) where we need to bet most often if the opponent bets. and I have lost some pot but this hand clearly explain what is the most often Situation. @Steve M Great Post to enlighten us.. Happy Grinding :-)

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