Nut flush draw vs borderline maniac

DeathMetalLawDeathMetalLaw Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
Playing 1/2 at Harrah’s Cherokee. Villain in this hand is very loose and aggressive with a range of nearly ATC and has hit a lot of boards with garbage holdings and won several pots.

I’m in SB with $275. Action folds to Villain in MP (has me covered) and he raises to $11. Folds to me, I look down at AQss and raise to $25 – which I know is a sizing mistake on my part but not sure MP would have folded to a bigger raise anyway. BB is aggressive but not very loose, a 2/5 reg from what I gathered, ($205 or so) calls and villain calls. $75 pot to the flop.

Flop comes 8sTs4d. I check (mistake??), BB checks, villain jams all in having both of us covered. The only holdings I’m confidently ruling out at this point is JJ-AA, as I’m certain he would have 4bet jammed preflop with something that strong. The best I can narrow it down to is middle pairs, which make 10’s and 8’s possible sets, possibly JT, T8, T9, 98, maybe 67s or a straight draw, or even any Ax holding as a total bluff. Even with me viewing him as borderline maniac, I can’t see him jamming here with something as strong as a set. I hated this spot, but all things considered, I put in the call for my $250. I was surprised to see BB call behind me for his $180 or so, and honestly I was so focused on trying to figure out a range for the villain that I wasn’t even considering him still being in the hand while tanking so I guess that’s something else I need to work on.

The board runs out Jc2c, and villain doesn’t want to show. Dealer finally says he needs to see my hand and his hand for the side pot, villain says “I hit the jack” and flips over J9ss. BB mucked. I got up and left the table as buying back in would have resulted in me playing full on tilt.

What can you do with spots like this? Would you make this call? I’m wondering if I’m far enough ahead on this flop to make it a profitable call long term using the range I narrowed him to (obviously I’m behind 10 and 8 sets). One positive thing I have to say is I’m happy with myself that I wasn’t too far off when trying to narrow down his holding. Putting others on ranges and holdings has been one of the weaker parts of my game for a quite some time, working through CORE seems to be showing results for me.


  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,399 -
    You're in good shape against pairs and excellent shape against dominated draws. V asks you to play for stacks. Under those conditions it would be rude to decline the offer.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2019
    You're not going to learn a lot from coolers, but you should focus on what is important here: sizing preflop and why. There's not really any excuse for laying this easy price to the IP player, nor is it necessarily about him folding pre or not. So there is a conceptual idea to be gained from.
  • BigDaddyBigDaddy Red Chipper Posts: 65 ✭✭
    Besides raising more pre flop, I would have jammed the flop. Not saying the outcome would have been different, but I would have maintained the lead you started pre flop. Not understanding the check/call on that board.
  • DeathMetalLawDeathMetalLaw Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    @BigDaddy I can see how me not being aggressive on this flop basically invited him to jam on me, but you really think I'm strong enough to open shove the flop here? Not argumentative with asking that, just genuinely asking.

    @persuadeo Yeah, as soon as preflop action completed I was asking myself why I didn't go bigger. And I agree, there is no good excuse for my sizing here but I really think had I made it $40-50 he was still calling.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 333 ✭✭✭
    I really think had I made it $40-50 he was still calling.

    This is somewhat missing the point. We can’t choose the action our opponent takes when it comes back to him. We can only give him a chance to make a mistake... a “more wrong” decision (for lack of a better term).

    Is there something else this sizing allowed that was bad for you?
  • DeathMetalLawDeathMetalLaw Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    @Paul_K That makes sense, and is definitely something I'll keep in mind going forward. As far as anything else my sizing allowed, I couldn't figure out if you were being rhetorical or had something specific you wanted me to find, but I thought it over for a bit. With me basically min raising, it may have made it easier for BB to come along knowing the likelihood that villain is going to flat call a min raise. I suppose it could also look like I'm raising with a more marginal holding as well.
  • BigDaddyBigDaddy Red Chipper Posts: 65 ✭✭
    @DeathMetalLaw: I absolutely do not believe you are being argumentative. This is an interesting hand and you asked a key question IMO.
    I had almost the exact same situation (AKs with flopped FD) with many of the same issues (including facing local maniac) 4 days ago. One key difference was my STP was 1.75 vs the field and yours is 3.33 vs MP, and 2.4 vs BB.
    In my case, I felt my STP was low enough that a shove was automatic, especially given my maniacs range (he had me covered, and I had a buy in). Was I wrong?
    Your STP post flop is key IMO, and I’m curious as to what the community says.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 333 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2019
    made it easier for BB to come along

    Right... we generally want to avoid creating multi-way 3b pots. This magnifies when we are oop. When action gets back to V with 4-1, he (player type aside) has to make this call.

    Sizing up not only likely gets us HU, it gives the loose/aggro V a chance to make a mistake by continuing wide, which we expect him to do. When he flats, we should be feeling good as we can now mostly rule out holdings that crush us (you mention most of those in your op). Now you just play poker, keeping in mind that he can connect with a lot of boards.

    As far as the actual hand, I think you played it fine post flop. Easy c/c vs this player.
  • AceBalaAceBala Red Chipper Posts: 40 ✭✭

    Glad to see someone from where i play $1 and $ 2 table in the same casino..

    Here is my thought,
    1) Being out of position is a major disadvantage against these kind of players. Its strange I encounter these plays in micro stakes but not at the Casino, Usually, that casino table has mostly tight players.
    2) Postflop Check, I am not sure depends upon the table. I bet only if I see any of my opponent has fold equity or in this spot if I want to build my pot. I would check, if there is no fold equity. considering he is a maniac player Checking is good for me..
    3) Poker Cruncher ( flopzilla) with your opponent range Postflop and preflop has 65% for you. Based on the EV Postflop (65% * 575 - 35%*250) = 286 . I think based on the math its comes as a good call.
    4) Even though the math say good call, I am not calling an All in with AK or AQ.. I feel much comfortable with AA, KK calling all in then with AK, AQ Hands.. Just my style
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,998 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Are you strong enough to open shove? Well, consider calling a shove vs. shoving, and what the difference is. You might be strong enough to shove, but not strong enough to call.

    You're right you should have thought about the third player in the hand. Having said that, with 2 opponents you can almost never fold the nut flush draw, unless you know something very specific about their hands, such as one of them has a flush draw and one of them has a set.

    Regarding the preflop raise, I don't see why you're so focused on getting him to fold. If he's a maniac I'd be happy if I shoved and he called. What's the issue exactly?
  • Bernard SilvaBernard Silva Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    When you play maniacs you have to expect larger swings and you will lose larger pots. However, if you master that player type you will end up searching for them to maximize your profits. Besides your preflop mistake, raise (4x-6x of their bet((maybe more)) if they are still calling with any 2. You stated "I got up and left the table as buying back in would have resulted in me playing full on tilt." That is a critical mistake. You got your money in with the best hand; the outcome is meaningless. If you have tilt problems research meditation techniques relating to poker. Remember, the majority of players are there to have fun. By getting angry you reduce their fun and ultimately your profits.

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