C-betting Passive players

gabraygabray Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
Hey guys new to the forum. This is not a theory question. I mostly play live 1/2 no limit. People playing scared and trying to hit and still playing passive when they know I'm raising a lot pre-flop. My question is about what is the general MAX +EV lines with c-betting or checking things like strong A-highs against these kinds of players. Balance isn't really my consideration. Generally speaking these players fold too much because they have too much garbage pre-flop.

But my question is with hands with showdown value that only mostly get called by worse, is it better if I check most of these hands from an exploitative perspective or just take a profitable c-bet? I struggle with these questions because I am not an online guy so I don't feel like I'm great at estimating stats that a HUD would show about player frequencies on each street. Usually I am a one and done TAG unless I pick up equity and feel like a guy is capable of laying down decent pairs.

Some of my thoughts are whether or Not big Aces might eventually be good triple barrel candidates that can still hit strong top pairs on later streets on some runouts. That's weirdly turing these hands into a sort of semi-bluff. My next thought is about how important equity denial actually is if they're calling correctly with draws. And lastly my thought is how valuable is denying their live card equity verses losing a c-bet the times they are ahead? Does anyone have good live experience that has an opinion on this? Thanks! Still learning.

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭✭
    If they fold too much, you've many way to adapt and abuse them. For example :
    - You can bet a wider range (being pole or linear) and steal more pots.
    - You can bet smaller (1/3 pot bet ?) and prince them in to call (AND making your bluff cheaper).
    - ... and make them fold a bigger pot on a later street (watch out for how the board develops)
    - You can delay your c-bet
    - You can raise bigger preflop
    - ... etc.

    be creative !
  • AlpineCurtAlpineCurt Red Chipper Posts: 55 ✭✭
    These are some good questions and spots I've wondered about!

    I think I can rephrase your question as Where do Big Aces fall on the bluff <---> value spectrum? And how do we place them?

    I think whiffed big aces are the murkiest of the merged part of our flop range. Some players call so wide you can legitimately bet Ace High for value on the flop and sometimes the turn. But they also have showdown value worth considering.

    As for your question about running triple barrels with them, I would avoid that for two reasons: First, Ace high has some showdown value, and if we're only getting worse to fold, it's not a good bet. Second reason, we should be choosing better bluffs than a "backdoor pair draw". Good semi bluffs are combos that currently have little if any SDV and can make a strong five card hand, not just a pair.

    Your question on equity denial, my understanding is this: we choose a sizing large enough so they can't be "calling correctly with draws." We make it a mistake for them to call and draw.
    gabray wrote: »
    But my question is with hands with showdown value that only mostly get called by worse, is it better if I check most of these hands from an exploitative perspective or just take a profitable c-bet?

    I'm certainly no expert but I think it's okay to do a mixture of both. When constructing my flop ranges, I "set these aside" till I've assigned the most obvious betting and checking ranges, then use them to fill in gaps where frequencies are very out of whack. But, I'm also curious to hear other people's thoughts on the most exploitive and therefore unbalanced use of them.

    What's the best use of them on a draw heavy board where our opponent can certainly have draws that are unlikely to fold, but their range is wide enough that they also have plenty of air?
  • gabraygabray Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    edited June 4
    Yeah it’s one of those weird spots where I kinda either randomize or base my decision based on flops more likely to hit my opponent or based on situations where it seems like they’ve missed. Them live reads lol I know so specific. I’m very rarely a small Cbet person except on paired boards or down betting after smashing in a 3bet pot. Just curious if anyone thought checking those big A highs could still be more profitable as a check against over-folders. I think I can see players hands more face up against bigger c-bets.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 772 ✭✭✭
    gabray wrote: »
    . Just curious if anyone thought checking those big A highs could still be more profitable as a check against over-folders.

    That's a little like asking " Should I keep betting with air into a villain that never folds?"

    The answer is in the question :)

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