NL2 Zoom SH - 89s IP vs 3b - weak line postflop

Muel294Muel294 Liverpool, EnglandRed Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
Villain: Unknown


PREFLOP: Pretty standard until BB 3b's. I never know where to begin in terms of assigning villain's 3b'ing ranges.
For example I tend to assume villains generally are 3b'ing for value so assign them something like: AA-JJ,AKo-AQo,AKs-AQs (but maybe this is way off)

If I have any specific reads or stats then I tend to assume villan is 3b'ing wider and will include some bluff 3b's.

Should I include some 3b bluffs as standard or include them and weight them less?

Anyway, decided to call preflop as I figure that I have decent implied odds vs a reasonably strong range, I'm IP and have a hand with good post-flop playability.

FLOP: It's between calling and raising here for me. I think calling is better than raising in this spot since I can't see villain folding much that he 3b's preflop. Maybe KK/JJ (if villain c-bets with these, which I think he might as a mixture of protection and value), but this is 12 combos of 39 and I expect 27 combos to stick it in my grid.

if we 3b the flop:
:spade so CORE recommends 3b'ing the flop 2.2x in a 3b pot (as standard) which would mean raising to around 0.50. This would give villain around 4:1 on a call. I think this gives villain too good a price on a call and means that we are less likely to fold out those hands.
:spade in any case this bet would need to work 33% of the time or more?
break even % = risk / risk + reward = 0.50 / 1.48 = 33%
:spade I would only expect villain to fold 6 combos of KK and 6 of JJ. 12 combos out of 39. 12/39 = 30%.

Since if we raise any larger it would mean that villain has to fold more frequently, then surely this means raising doesn't really serve much of a purpose in this spot?

If villain was to flat the 3b then I think we would play the turn similarly to how we would have played it if we had flat, just we are more likely to get it in due to pot odds and SPRs.

as played....

I decided to call as I didn't think that many hands would fold. My plan was probably just to get it in on most :CLUB: .

TURN: Weird card IMO, since villain can have some KK and AK. At the time of the hand I really wasn't sure whether to raise or call here.

After reviewing the hand ,and given the above range that I put villain on (AA-JJ,AKo-AQo,AKs-AQs), I guess I should just raise-call all in here.

In hindsight given pot odds and villains remaining stack size I can't see villain fold any sets or 2pr's here. After reviewing the hand in Flopzilla I have 50% vs 2pr+ for the range which I assigned against villain.

At the time I decided to flat call IP and try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible

RIVER: At the time I continued to go with my T plan of getting to showdown as cheaply as possible (in case villain has a straight).

In hindsight I think it is unlikely that villain has a straight as they would mostly bet the river themselves here. I think the river play should be to just put villain AI as villain only has 2/3 PSB left, although maybe they get way from AQ sometimes,

CONCLUSION: I think I played way too passively Turn and River, potentially leaving a lot of money on the table. Also I think if T comes a club instead, then my plan would be to bet to setup for a river shove if checked to, and to raise small to setup for a river shove if villain barrels.

$0.01/$0.02Zoom No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

Stacks:
UTG ($1.95) 98bb
UTG+1 ($2) 100bb
CO ($4.35) 218bb
BTN Hero ($2.92) 146bb
SB ($1.93) 97bb
BB ($2.10) 105bb

Pre-Flop: (0.03, 6 players) Hero is BTN :8c: :9c:
UTG raises to $0.04, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.04, SB calls $0.03, BB raises to $0.20, UTG folds, Hero calls $0.16, SB folds

Main Pot : ($12.60)
Hero: +$5.73 EV (47.10%)
BB: +$6.47 EV (52.90%)
Flop: :Tc: :Qh: :Ac: ($0.48, 2 players)

BB bets $0.22, Hero calls $0.22

Main Pot : ($12.60)
Hero: +$5.77 EV (47.50%)
BB: +$6.40 EV (52.50%)

Turn: :Js: ($0.92, 2)
BB bets $0.44, Hero calls $0.44
Main Pot : ($12.60)
Hero: +$11.73 EV (96.60%)
BB: -$0.01 EV (3.40%)
River: :4d: ($1.80, 2)

BB checks, Hero checks

Main Pot : ($12.60)
Hero: +$12.60 EV (100.00%)
BB: +$0.00 EV (0.00%)

Final Pot: $1.80
Hero shows a straight, Eight to Queen
:8c: :9c:
BB shows a pair of Aces
:Ah: :7d:

Hero wins $1.74 (net +$0.88)

SB lost $0.04
BB lost $0.86
UTG lost $0.04

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭✭
    Muel294 wrote: »
    PREFLOP: Pretty standard until BB 3b's. I never know where to begin in terms of assigning villain's 3b'ing ranges.
    For example I tend to assume villains generally are 3b'ing for value so assign them something like: AA-JJ,AKo-AQo,AKs-AQs (but maybe this is way off)

    If I have any specific reads or stats then I tend to assume villan is 3b'ing wider and will include some bluff 3b's.

    Should I include some 3b bluffs as standard or include them and weight them less?
    Here, Villain is not only 3betting but squeezing. Probably with a range a bit more loose than a regular 3bet range - or a 3bet range with more wacky combos which have hard time postflop and don't want to call, but seems too strong to let it go (seen very often with med AX).
    How to build the 3bet range is very difficult, esp. when adding bluffs and wacky combos. Here only observation and notes on Villain could help you.

    Here, I'm for calling the 3bet: We have absolute position and a hand which can flop very well and we are closing the action.
    But on the other side, we are then capped (we didn't 3bet) and normally behind V's hand (AX, strong broadways, strong PP).
    Muel294 wrote: »

    FLOP: It's between calling and raising here for me. I think calling is better than raising in this spot since I can't see villain folding much that he 3b's preflop. Maybe KK/JJ (if villain c-bets with these, which I think he might as a mixture of protection and value), but this is 12 combos of 39 and I expect 27 combos to stick it in my grid.

    if we 3b the flop:
    :spade so CORE recommends 3b'ing the flop 2.2x in a 3b pot (as standard) which would mean raising to around 0.50. This would give villain around 4:1 on a call. I think this gives villain too good a price on a call and means that we are less likely to fold out those hands.
    :spade in any case this bet would need to work 33% of the time or more?
    break even % = risk / risk + reward = 0.50 / 1.48 = 33%
    :spade I would only expect villain to fold 6 combos of KK and 6 of JJ. 12 combos out of 39. 12/39 = 30%.

    Since if we raise any larger it would mean that villain has to fold more frequently, then surely this means raising doesn't really serve much of a purpose in this spot?

    If villain was to flat the 3b then I think we would play the turn similarly to how we would have played it if we had flat, just we are more likely to get it in due to pot odds and SPRs.

    as played....

    I decided to call as I didn't think that many hands would fold. My plan was probably just to get it in on most :CLUB: .

    I really really don't like raising flop here. Our range doesn't hit this board very strongly - we don't have AA, QQ, AQ, KQ as we 3bet them preflop. Maybe we have some KJ (but most of them are in my own 3bet range as well). On the other side, Villain can have them.
    If you raise, what do you do when Villain shove over the top ? You've to fold, and you don't want to fold such a nice hand.
    Also our outs, esp. J, could be toxic out (J = any K gives Villain a better straight, and there are more K in his range than in ours).


    Folding is but out of the question too as we have position and enough equity. And even if V has AA, we still have outs to stack him. Esp. :CLUB: are good for us since high :CLUB: on the board blocks many FD combos V could have had.
    Muel294 wrote: »
    TURN: Weird card IMO, since villain can have some KK and AK. At the time of the hand I really wasn't sure whether to raise or call here.

    After reviewing the hand ,and given the above range that I put villain on (AA-JJ,AKo-AQo,AKs-AQs), I guess I should just raise-call all in here.

    In hindsight given pot odds and villains remaining stack size I can't see villain fold any sets or 2pr's here. After reviewing the hand in Flopzilla I have 50% vs 2pr+ for the range which I assigned against villain.

    At the time I decided to flat call IP and try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible
    V could have K, but also many sets and 2P (and bluffs). And even with K, you still have :CLUB: FD. So there is no way to fold.

    Raising could be done, but since we have position and V seems willing to bet, we don't want him to fold the bottom of his betting range. Let's use our position and let him keep firing.
    OOP, I could see a c-r, but here I've the feeling that raising is giving away our position edge.

    I guess in a solved world, you would have to split your raise/call % with 9c8c - and I'd not be surprised that they advocate for more raising than calling. (But I don't use solver)
    RIVER: At the time I continued to go with my T plan of getting to showdown as cheaply as possible (in case villain has a straight).

    In hindsight I think it is unlikely that villain has a straight as they would mostly bet the river themselves here. I think the river play should be to just put villain AI as villain only has 2/3 PSB left, although maybe they get way from AQ sometimes,
    Here, when Villain check, he is telling that HE wants to go to showdown. And this caps his range since he would surely river shove any K (nuts) he have.
    But there are still many 2nd best Villain could x/c with, esp. sets and 2P.
    Not shoving river yourself is dramatic. First you miss a ton of value. Second you allow yourself to bluff (esp. busted :CLUB: FD) as you don't bet your value hands.
    I've not made the whole range construction exercise - I'd only if you do it first - , but I'd not be surprised if I shove 100% of my river range here.

    Trying to see the cheapest showdown possible with the 2nd nuts is your biggest mistake. Stop seeing monster under the bed and start making them pay for their med hands.
  • RyanH1995RyanH1995 Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    I think the BB is 3betting wider than what you assigned pre flop. When you and the small blind flat the UTG open he is incentivized to 3bet wider. I think he probably has some of the suited wheel aces and suited broadway hands like KJ and KQ in his 3bet range as well. I think your call pre flop is good as villain 3bet pretty small OOP and you get to play in position.

    I think the flop is pretty interesting as you both have many two pair combos in your range but you do not have any of the combos of sets and villain has all of them. For this reason I think he has the nut advantage on this flop texture (not sure would like others thoughts on this). When he bets on this board he should be pretty strong as this board connects strongly with your calling range however his roughly half pot sizing isn't that indicative of a strong hand on this board.

    I think villains turn bet is pretty bad as he has very few Kx hands he is betting the flop with besides KJ and :Kc :Qc. Villain here is betting flop and turn way too wide and I think his sizings on both streets give away he has a pretty mediocre holding. However against a more competent villain I think raising this turn with your hand would be a pretty big mistake as I think he only continues with better and you only represent Kx making it hard to have bluffs. I would expect most villains to check this turn as it is a bad card for their range so if they are betting it they really should have Kx.
  • Muel294Muel294 Liverpool, EnglandRed Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    Thanks for the feedback.

    Key Learns:
    1)I’m not thinking what other hands I would have in my range that play a certain way. Eg since I flat pre I rarely have QQ/KK/AA. Therefore that is a consideration for raising OTF.
    2) My assessment of people’s 3b’ing range might be a little too tight as a starting point.
    3) I get tunnel vision. I.e I’m not thinking about what worse hands villain can have. Im super concerned about villain having the nuts. Might be a mental game leak as well as from a theory standpoint.

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