QQ on K high rainbow board

NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 58 ✭✭
edited June 11 in Live Poker Hands
2/5 live table. Effective stacks are roughly $1k. Me and button, MP is shorter, about $500.

I believe suits are irrelevant to this hand and card tags are not working.

Middle position player is a loose cannon. He plays roughly 50-60% of hands. His stack has gone up and down for 4 hours and I think he is into the game for roughly 2k that has a $500 cap.

The button is a thinking player who I have played a couple of pots with and he bluffed me once. I think, he is a very good player who likes to put pressure on players but I have seen him fold several times when the pressure is put back on him.

Middle position limps and I am in the hijack with QQ. I open to $20, pretty standard at this table.

Button 3 bets to $90, MP calls, I call.

Flop: $270 K J 4 rainbow.

MP checks, I check as I think the button has more Ks than I do. He thinks and checks.

Turn is an offsuit 10: MP bets $25. I just call. Based on my time with this guy he can really be playing ATC. I have a ton of SDV against him but I'm more worried about the button behind me.

Button raises to $190. MP folds. I go all in.

Thoughts? I know why I turn jammed but want to hear some opinions first.

Thanks

Comments

  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭✭
    It would be a good idea to explain your reasoning for shoving in case there is some sort of tell involved, otherwise it just looks like spew.
  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 211 ✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    ... looks like spew.

    Yup.

  • RyanH1995RyanH1995 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    I agree with @Ninjah here I don't see any reason to shove. Even if Button is raising light here I don't think you are ever getting called by worse when you shove. He could be raising with hands like AQ, KT, JT or TT that decided to check the flop multiway. I doubt he is turning a hand like 99 into a bluff if he is even 3betting with that here. At worst I think he does this with a hand like AK or KQ and you are in pretty bad shape most of the time.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 58 ✭✭
    The biggest reasoning behind the shove is I think I have a ton of fold equity against this player.

    Like I said, in four hours I have seen him like to put pressure on lots of pots in position. He had 3 bet big several times on the button and then folded later on to pressure put back on him.

    The other reason is range advantage. He may be 3 betting with AQ but I block that. I also have AQ in my preflop range with the open in the hijack. I'm sure that weighed in on him.

    You both say it looked like spew but what other line would I take here? Just call? Folding seems very week here based 3 bet preflop. Call and go for SDV? I don't think that is a good play as like I said, he has way more K in his range than I do.
  • RyanH1995RyanH1995 Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    What do you think villain's 3bet range is pre flop and what hands in this range do you think he checks flop with and raises turn to this size with? I don't like the play because most of the hands I think he checks on the flop improve on the turn. I think villain would need to be way over bluffing the turn or be folding way too much to aggression to make this a profitable shove. I don't think villain is ever folding two pair or a set to your shove. That makes me think the only hands he can fold here are AK or KQ.
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 139 ✭✭
    One thing I want to throw out, why not 4! here to iso the original raiser?

    You could take down a decent pot pre, or have a very defined range you’d be up against, imo.

    As played, I don’t agree with the shove - I can’t see worse hands calling you. AQ, TT, lot of Kx hands that can be in a button 3! range make this seem a little reckless to me.
  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    edited June 12
    I'm probably alone, but I like the line. You block AQ, so most likely worst case scenario is that villain has a set. You give him incorrect odds to draw to his boat. If he doesn't have the straight and is capable of folding, then this should get through enough to be positive EV. As long as you took this line realizing that you're turning QQ into a bluff, I think that it is fine.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Turn is an offsuit 10: MP bets $25. I just call. Based on my time with this guy he can really be playing ATC. I have a ton of SDV against him but I'm more worried about the button behind me.
    Big issue is that you've called 25$ on turn, when pot was $270 (plus turns bet). Why would you only call such a small bet if you had a great hand like KJ, AQ, or 44? Don't you want to build the pot ? Don't you want to deny equity ? (If you'd have bet these hands like that, I'd have said it's fancy play syndrome)

    This is the biggest issue: calling a 10% pot size bet caps your range badly to a meh hand or a draw like QJs.
    Calling a 10% PSB and then shoving... really a weird line - thus might decrease your FE.

    You should have raised turn, a big raise with a polarized range. QQ here is nice as bluff since you block the nuts (AQ, Q9) and nutted draw (KQ, QJ, QT) and drawing to the nuts at the same time. And since MP underbet turn and BU didn't c-bet, you should take the pot down often with a ~220$ turn raise.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    An interesting hand! I like your audacity.

    I like to look at the math of things first as a shortcut to see if it makes something obvious.

    How often does BTN have to fold for this bet to work? (The pot is $510, you are shoving ~$885. 885/(885+510) = 63%.) What is the strongest range he folds given the required percentage he must fold? Is his range weaker or stronger than that line in the sand?

    Ok, there is that. Now onto the choice of hand for a bet. To fold better is to expect villain to check Kxs, KQ, AK, AA and thin value raise the turn. As equity denial you look to turn away hands like AJ, AT that can make trips or a straight, but these hands have four outs only, Axs has two outs.

    Sizing and stacks are interesting here. His turn sizing retains his entire nutted range if he is looking to stack the MP but expects to lose you. It's too small to easily get the stacks in if he is aiming for you. If both of you call the 190 the pot will be 840 and you will have 720 behind. His turn sizing allows him to jam the river and get folds from a lot of your range. If he sized with both plans in mind and has a strategy to jam the river with air then wow.

    But... why not a call? His bluffs have little equity and you don't have to pay off on a rivered Q. Your hand is face up, but I expect this line to have a lot of bluffs.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 58 ✭✭
    Ok, lots of thoughts here so I'll see if I can get them in order.

    First, thank you all for your input.

    To be clear I am not looking for value here, I feel I am behind and am looking for a fold. I just put the hand into poker cruncher and according to that I am way behind his range...although I did not put any bluffs in there in real time. I also have all the nut hands in my range, I also block all the nut hands in his range. Is this an accurate range? This is what I was thinking at the table.

    Like I said I have seen this player 3 bet several times and lay it down on later streets to pressure. I felt that there was no way this player was putting it all in without the nuts, even with a set. I watched him build his stack from $500 up to $1k in 4 hours making good decisions and I didn't think he was going to put in all in a call without the nuts. AQ is a huge part of my open range, call 3 bet.

    In hindsight, though Red is right that it is an odd line calling the $25 and then jamming.

    I don't like 4 betting OOP against what I perceive to be a good player on the button. If he 5 bets me I need to fold and if he calls I am a bit lost...especially with one other player in the hand. Maybe as I get better I will feel more comfortable doing this.

    I absolutely hate calling here. Mostly for the fact that it is big pot(to me) and also for the fact that in my head I don't have a clear plan on the river. What if the board pairs? What if I get a Q? What about an A? I'm just not a good enough player yet to deal with those situations and feel like I would have made a huge mistake. This is really the only first or second time a situation like this has come up for me.

    The result was villain folded like I thought and did not show. We talked about telling each other what we had but I told him I would only tell if he told me about a hand that he bet me off of earlier. I left about 45 minutes after the hand but he was taking a break and not at the table when I left.

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  • osirus0830osirus0830 Red Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    Well done. I thought that it was a good line. Very difficult for anything other than top set to call. Middle set is even uncomfortable in that spot.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    Folding a set on the turn is fantasy poker.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 964 ✭✭✭✭
    Your oop to a player yo think is good...he orobly thinks you are iso the bad player with a wide range

    270 in pot after you call.lots of dead money in the pot...just go all in preflop...
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 139 ✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    I don't like 4 betting OOP against what I perceive to be a good player on the button. If he 5 bets me I need to fold and if he calls I am a bit lost...especially with one other player in the hand. Maybe as I get better I will feel more comfortable doing this.

    Hypothetically if you 4! There are 12 combos of AA/KK that have you crushed, which would likely elicit a 5! In which case fold, but if he calls you keep range advantage and the lead. 2/5 definitely has more 3-betting than 1/2 but I still find that people vastly under-3! And rarely 4! Without AA/KK. But my sample size is admittedly thin at 2/5.

  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 58 ✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    I don't like 4 betting OOP against what I perceive to be a good player on the button. If he 5 bets me I need to fold and if he calls I am a bit lost...especially with one other player in the hand. Maybe as I get better I will feel more comfortable doing this.

    Hypothetically if you 4! There are 12 combos of AA/KK that have you crushed, which would likely elicit a 5! In which case fold, but if he calls you keep range advantage and the lead. 2/5 definitely has more 3-betting than 1/2 but I still find that people vastly under-3! And rarely 4! Without AA/KK. But my sample size is admittedly thin at 2/5.

    Yes I thought of that at the table. I just didn't like the fact that I would need to fold to a 5 bet definitely new ground for me. Plus with the 3 bet to 90 and one caller I would need to 4 bet to what? About $250? $300? He seemed like the type of player to me that could just flat AA or KK in that spot to keep his range wide. I would have range advantage but know what I have means he could still have AA or KK in there.

  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 58 ✭✭
    Eazzy wrote: »
    Your oop to a player yo think is good...he orobly thinks you are iso the bad player with a wide range

    270 in pot after you call.lots of dead money in the pot...just go all in preflop...


    Not sure what you mean? My original open was an ISO? All in preflop? $90 to $1k seems excessive.
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 139 ✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    NTD12 wrote: »
    I don't like 4 betting OOP against what I perceive to be a good player on the button. If he 5 bets me I need to fold and if he calls I am a bit lost...especially with one other player in the hand. Maybe as I get better I will feel more comfortable doing this.

    Hypothetically if you 4! There are 12 combos of AA/KK that have you crushed, which would likely elicit a 5! In which case fold, but if he calls you keep range advantage and the lead. 2/5 definitely has more 3-betting than 1/2 but I still find that people vastly under-3! And rarely 4! Without AA/KK. But my sample size is admittedly thin at 2/5.

    Yes I thought of that at the table. I just didn't like the fact that I would need to fold to a 5 bet definitely new ground for me. Plus with the 3 bet to 90 and one caller I would need to 4 bet to what? About $250? $300? He seemed like the type of player to me that could just flat AA or KK in that spot to keep his range wide. I would have range advantage but know what I have means he could still have AA or KK in there.

    Live reads definitely come into play in a spot like this, glad the result landed in your favor.

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