Facing Turn Donk Bet with Marginal Two Pair

gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
$.02/.04 6 Players
Effective Stack Size: $2.13

Hero is in BB with :KS: :JD:
CO limps. SB limps. Hero raises to $.20. CO calls. SB calls.

Pot: $.60
Flop: :KC: :9C: :3C:
SB checks. Hero bets $.40. SB calls.

Pot: $1.40
Turn: :JS:
SB bets $1.40. Hero folds.

I isolated since both Villains had a loose open range so their limp range appeared pretty weak to me. The pot sized donk bet came off very strong to me so I folded due to a fear of flushes and sets (more likely flushes since sets would bet or check raise the flop).
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Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    Flop bet is the reason you don't know what to do on turn. Try see why.
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Flop bet is the reason you don't know what to do on turn. Try see why.

    Could you elaborate please? I gave some thought on this and I realized that I needed to bet to deny equity for the ace or queen of clubs. That means that only top pairs, made flushes and flush draws would continue. I do think that my bet size is a little too big though since I am inflating the pot unnecessarily. With a donk bet, I think that Villain only has flushes since other hands wouldn’t donk bet but would have either raised the flop or check called the turn.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,171 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You are never denying equity to nut or second nut clubs, most of which involve SF redraws.
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    You are never denying equity to nut or second nut clubs, most of which involve SF redraws.

    Why is that the case? SF redraws only have 1 out.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,171 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Because 1) your opponent is playing against a range, not the flopped nut flush, and 2) the game doesn't end on the flop.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    Furthermore
    gl523 wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    Flop bet is the reason you don't know what to do on turn. Try see why.

    Could you elaborate please? I gave some thought on this and I realized that I needed to bet to deny equity for the ace or queen of clubs. That means that only top pairs, made flushes and flush draws would continue. I do think that my bet size is a little too big though since I am inflating the pot unnecessarily. With a donk bet, I think that Villain only has flushes since other hands wouldn’t donk bet but would have either raised the flop or check called the turn.

    So you mean you want to make worst hands fold and only better hands continuing ?
    When you aim to bluff (deny equity), you want to make BETTER hands folding ;-)

    Also donkbetting is relevant only if you have a (if possible rather clear) nut advantage. Do you have it on K93ccc ?
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Because 1) your opponent is playing against a range, not the flopped nut flush, and 2) the game doesn't end on the flop.

    Good point. I didn’t realize that you can have a pair and a flush draw in this situation and that ace high beats cbet bluffs.
  • gl523gl523 Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Furthermore
    gl523 wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    Flop bet is the reason you don't know what to do on turn. Try see why.

    Could you elaborate please? I gave some thought on this and I realized that I needed to bet to deny equity for the ace or queen of clubs. That means that only top pairs, made flushes and flush draws would continue. I do think that my bet size is a little too big though since I am inflating the pot unnecessarily. With a donk bet, I think that Villain only has flushes since other hands wouldn’t donk bet but would have either raised the flop or check called the turn.

    So you mean you want to make worst hands fold and only better hands continuing ?
    When you aim to bluff (deny equity), you want to make BETTER hands folding ;-)

    Also donkbetting is relevant only if you have a (if possible rather clear) nut advantage. Do you have it on K93ccc ?

    What do you define a worse hand to be? I consider a worse hand to be a hand that has less raw equity than the hand that you have. In that case, you can deny equity to a worse hand by causing draws that have less equity to fold to prevent them from having better equity in later streets if they make their draw.

    I don’t understand your second paragraph. What does your question mean and why is nut advantage relevant to donk betting?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26
    As said by Persuadeo
    persuadeo wrote: »
    You are never denying equity to nut or second nut clubs, most of which involve SF redraws.
    So great hands like made flush, nut FD (and at least 1 street 2nd and ev. 3nut FD) - esp. combo draws - , and sets won't fold. Against these, TPmedK is in bad shape (raw equity), except against a naked FD.
    PP with one club (esp. bad ones), MP and WP, SC/gapers no club will kinda easily fold. But against these, TPmedK is ahead (raw equity).

    Hence c-betting when only better hands continue is value owning yourself (some other will call it a "game theory disaster").

    ***
    Now it's not bad per se to make worst hands folding as you deny their share of equity (we discussed a very similar question of @LeChiffre last year)
    When you look at the raw equity of TxTc or 8x8c, their still have 43% equity against KJo no club. So it's still good to take that down.

    Yet you have to take a step ahead of the the raw equity. Will TcTx will give you action OOP... : Is the T high FD good? Is hitting T good ? OOP it will be harder to realize its equity as well as to get paid once he hits (IF even ahead). So when TxTc has 43% raw equity against your TP, it's not a hand to give much action with OOP. (And this is only against your hand, not your range!)
    On the contrary, a hand like Ac8x (no risk of being overflushed) will (more) easily call; it has almost the same raw equity as TxTc (45%), but holds a way better playability.

    This is the difference between raw equity and realizable equity. A critical difference to understand !

    ***
    As bottom line, you have to consider where TPmedK get in the range you comes on the flop with, and what to do with it.

    TPmedK no redraw is a weak hand. Yet you still have a decent SDV. You want to realize its equity - looking for a cheap showdown. Also it can be turned into a bluff catcher (if V are able to bluff often enough).

    When you c-bet KJo, you're turning it into a bluff. Aim is to deny equity, not to build the pot (you really don't want to be called as it means you're in a really bad shape). It's ok to bluff, but is KJo the right combo? I'd say no: you're blocking TP (main hand to fold with meh PP with a club), which also (slightly) increase the chance of V having either a hand they will never give action with (so why denying equity?), or a too strong hand they will never fold (so why denying equity?). Plus, you don't have a blocker or a redraw (which is here often the same, for example KxJc).

    => To me, c-betting KJo on Kc9c3c is turning your hand into napkins and trashing his SDV. It should go in a x/f or x/c range and not into a bet range; for bluff c-bet, considering the board texture, there are better combos. (Esp. against TWO Villains)

    gl523 wrote: »
    I don’t understand your second paragraph. What does your question mean and why is nut advantage relevant to donk betting?
    I mixed with another hand, please don't pay attention to my comment about donkbetting.

  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 543 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Now it's not bad per se to make worst hands folding as you deny their share of equity (we discussed a very similar question of @LeChiffre last year)

    Glad something came out of that discussion =)

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