Have to Ask; Girl at the table

Mandy_LetteriMandy_Letteri New ZealandRed Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
This has been something ive been curious to ask about, we talk about how we view and make some general first thoughts on a player when they first sit down, i.e business man in a suit with a ring, young sweatshirt kid, ect....
Im a chick in her 20's and generally sit down semi smart casual attire and have ALways wondered what are people thinking off the bat about how I am going to play when I sit down?? Thoughts?

I always wait an orbit at least before I start playing, and watch the table dynamics first, but always wondered about this.

Cheers!

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,388 -
    In the U.S. how you are perceived would depend sensitively on whether or not you're Asian. If not, the default is probably "has it when she bets, easy to bluff at any sign of weakness." This is frequently wildly wrong, of course, and often produces hilarity/profit.

    And level II (Doug made a video on this years ago), because young women get used to that reaction, they'll often counter, so completely opposite to what I've just said, a big value bet into a young woman grinder will often get paid off because the woman is used to being bluffed.

    Which... ah... kind of illustrates the problem with appearance/gender/age reads.
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  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 208 ✭✭
    Doesnt seem like it'd be a problem to the young woman grinder, much the opposite in fact
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,388 -
    Sure, it's like many aspects of poker. If you can think at level 3 when your opponent is on level 2, you'll be fine. The difficulty arises when you're on 3 and V is on 1.
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  • Mandy_LetteriMandy_Letteri New ZealandRed Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    white chick not asain, i do find myself, since following redchip poker aggression, getting played at a lot for sure. I do get a lot of profit at the beginning due to this thought that if i bet i have it but then run into trouble as they begin to get annoyed with my play ha
  • Mandy_LetteriMandy_Letteri New ZealandRed Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    thanks for the responses!
  • Mandy_LetteriMandy_Letteri New ZealandRed Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    In the U.S. how you are perceived would depend sensitively on whether or not you're Asian. If not, the default is probably "has it when she bets, easy to bluff at any sign of weakness." This is frequently wildly wrong, of course, and often produces hilarity/profit.

    And level II (Doug made a video on this years ago), because young women get used to that reaction, they'll often counter, so completely opposite to what I've just said, a big value bet into a young woman grinder will often get paid off because the woman is used to being bluffed.

    Which... ah... kind of illustrates the problem with appearance/gender/age reads.

    also where can i find this video??? love any point of views on this!
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,388 -
    I think the video was in the PRO library. @Doug Hull do you remember the one I'm talking about?
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  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 786 ✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    In the U.S. how you are perceived would depend sensitively on whether or not you're Asian. If not, the default is probably "has it when she bets, easy to bluff at any sign of weakness." This is frequently wildly wrong, of course, and often produces hilarity/profit.

    And level II (Doug made a video on this years ago), because young women get used to that reaction, they'll often counter, so completely opposite to what I've just said, a big value bet into a young woman grinder will often get paid off because the woman is used to being bluffed.

    Which... ah... kind of illustrates the problem with appearance/gender/age reads.

    So what is the stereotype for Asian girls @TheGameKat ?
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 208 ✭✭
    Theres a lady in my poker room, a reg, deep pockets, unstudied, extremely thin, lots of overcalls.

    I have had the pleasure of playing with her many times, and it's amazing how the dynamic changes so dramatically due to her presence. Either she's running good and dominating or running bad and spewing.

    The way players perceive her vary dramatically. Not just because she's female or b/c volatile tendencies but both together.

    This gives her freedom initially, but once caught the jig is up.

    Maybe take special note when in pots with players you have history with, and feel free to abuse any player who categorizes you a nit.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,781 -
    edited July 3
    I can't remember the video it was in, but that is one of my truisms: Young women get bluffed way too often. If I perceive that she knows that, and is enough of a rounder to react then I will totally overbet value.

    My favorite hand like this had a river shove of $450 into a $50 pot. She tanked and called. This hand is in Poker Plays You Can Use, Volume 2.

    It has been my experience that young women at the table tend to be very bi-modal. That is either complete sharks or complete newbies. Why would any woman want to subject herself to a bunch of crusty old-dudes that make hapless innuendos at or about her all the time unless she was getting paid. Well paid.

    This fishy stereotype is absolutely used by these sharks, and I enjoy watching it when it happens. A while back a student was sitting $2-$5, he did not belong there... A 20something from Estonia sits down with the table max in a fresh rack, mostly black chips. She sits to his left, casually unloads the rack in a smooth motion, starts shuffling chips with her left hand (as a rightly) and the stacks are 10 high each. She plays well for a few orbits.

    I ask my student if she is any good. He gives a stereotypical response about her being weak tight. From this description, you can see all the things that I pointed out. Seriously, does a young Estonian woman find herself with a full buy at the Aria $2-$5 by accident?

    As predicted, she made him absolutely miserable sitting to his left.

    I LOL'd.
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  • Mandy_LetteriMandy_Letteri New ZealandRed Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    I can't remember the video it was in, but that is one of my truisms: Young women get bluffed way too often. If I perceive that she knows that, and is enough of a rounder to react then I will totally overbet value.

    My favorite hand like this had a river shove of $450 into a $50 pot. She tanked and called. This hand is in Poker Plays You Can Use, Volume 2.

    It has been my experience that young women at the table tend to be very bi-modal. That is either complete sharks or complete newbies. Why would any woman want to subject herself to a bunch of crusty old-dudes that make hapless innuendos at or about her all the time unless she was getting paid. Well paid.

    This fishy stereotype is absolutely used by these sharks, and I enjoy watching it when it happens. A while back a student was sitting $2-$5, he did not belong there... A 20something from Estonia sits down with the table max in a fresh rack, mostly black chips. She sits to his left, casually unloads the rack in a smooth motion, starts shuffling chips with her left hand (as a rightly) and the stacks are 10 high each. She plays well for a few orbits.

    I ask my student if she is any good. He gives a stereotypical response about her being weak tight. From this description, you can see all the things that I pointed out. Seriously, does a young Estonian woman find herself with a full buy at the Aria $2-$5 by accident?

    As predicted, she made him absolutely miserable sitting to his left.

    I LOL'd.

    Doug! Thank you for the response, I do find I love getting paid for my big value hands becasue I do get paid off, It is always interesting how no one will play back at me for at least the first 30 min of a session becasue they assume I dont have a bluff in me, but then tend my play has to tighten up once i start getting called down a bit. Im still the average 1/2 player, still have a lot of work to do but also feel i can beat the average player pool on the weeekends in a city that is full of people with too much money to care. It is always an ackward sit down at the beggining no matter what with these "crusty dudes" hahah
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,388 -
    The Mule wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    In the U.S. how you are perceived would depend sensitively on whether or not you're Asian. If not, the default is probably "has it when she bets, easy to bluff at any sign of weakness." This is frequently wildly wrong, of course, and often produces hilarity/profit.

    And level II (Doug made a video on this years ago), because young women get used to that reaction, they'll often counter, so completely opposite to what I've just said, a big value bet into a young woman grinder will often get paid off because the woman is used to being bluffed.

    Which... ah... kind of illustrates the problem with appearance/gender/age reads.

    So what is the stereotype for Asian girls @TheGameKat ?

    Oh this is Vegas specific. If they're local, obviously other locals know them already. If they're not, it's like 90% they're from SoCal and thus play like they're from SoCal.
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  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All except the worst players will judge you on your frequencies and sizing. I'm sure there are some advantages for you to be taken in the first encounter with unknown vs unknown dynamics, as there is for almost all of us. As you move up, you can expect your person to matter less and less, and your game more and more.
  • Mandy_LetteriMandy_Letteri New ZealandRed Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    All except the worst players will judge you on your frequencies and sizing. I'm sure there are some advantages for you to be taken in the first encounter with unknown vs unknown dynamics, as there is for almost all of us. As you move up, you can expect your person to matter less and less, and your game more and more.

    I reckon the worst side effect of it all is though is trying to pay attention to every action in the game while some bloke next to me wants to have a friendly conversation! @SplitSuit always mentions that we want to keep people happy and chatty at the table so i try to converse but it really is beyond distracting at times!

    Feel like im digressing now haha
  • Mandy_LetteriMandy_Letteri New ZealandRed Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    @TheGameKat this is great! hahah now im curious how you consider SoCal players play on average, thanks for the responses! Fun!
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,388 -
    @TheGameKat this is great! hahah now im curious how you consider SoCal players play on average, thanks for the responses! Fun!

    Way looser and typically more aggressive than Vegas regs. But let me reiterate the point made previously, these are zeroth order approximations. As @persuadeo reminds us, playing well and observing how opponents play is a better path.
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  • Mandy_LetteriMandy_Letteri New ZealandRed Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    @TheGameKat this is great! hahah now im curious how you consider SoCal players play on average, thanks for the responses! Fun!

    Way looser and typically more aggressive than Vegas regs. But let me reiterate the point made previously, these are zeroth order approximations. As @persuadeo reminds us, playing well and observing how opponents play is a better path.

    Absolutely, thank you!
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I reckon the worst side effect of it all is though is trying to pay attention to every action in the game while some bloke next to me wants to have a friendly conversation! @SplitSuit always mentions that we want to keep people happy and chatty at the table so i try to converse but it really is beyond distracting at times!

    Feel like im digressing now haha

    I think it's relevant. Anyone who is skilled can do their skill well even while doing something else. The better you are the more chatty you can be and still pay attention. This could be a real advantage for you as you can probably tweak your image any way you want, except to the really good players who will just pay attention to your actions as persuadeo said.

  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 850 ✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    All except the worst players will judge you on your frequencies and sizing. I'm sure there are some advantages for you to be taken in the first encounter with unknown vs unknown dynamics, as there is for almost all of us. As you move up, you can expect your person to matter less and less, and your game more and more.

    to piggyback on this, just on a general note, take however your table is playing vs you and adjust around that. Could lead to massive mistakes if you end up assuming how players view you.

    to answer your direct question i just never stereotype cause i've seen to many polarizing instances in players to assume how their gonna play, Even existing players change sometimes from day to day based on their moods or current life situation.
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  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 208 ✭✭
    @RCP Coach - Fausto Valdez

    If you were aware of a players current mood-state, would you use that to your advantage?
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 208 ✭✭
    If you cant step in the same river twice, thats implying you cant meet the same opponent twice(among other things)? Which would mean every time you sit down at the table (even with players you have history with) the dynamic is unknown vs. unknown
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Technically yes. Obviously history means something in practice, but you are a different player than you were a month ago (or else what's the forum for?) and you shouldn't make too many assumptions about how your opponents are changing either. They might even get worse depending on their deductions du jour, but things change from day to day.
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 139 ✭✭
    edited July 13
    One thing that hasn’t been brought up yet - with how relatively few women are active in poker (look at the main event breakdown) I always assume, like any other player, they know what their doing until they give me a reason not to. Probably moreso with women because of a smaller sample size in games.

    Typically frequencies as mentioned and sizing, specifically 3! sizing, has been a great tell on who’s studied and who isn’t.

    Since fewer women play poker than men, I usually assume they know what their doing when they sit down - specifically the 21-40ish crowd in my home casino. .

    Also I might just be way off and scared since Minkin came out of my home casino and she absolutely obliterated me every time we sat down together.
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 850 ✭✭✭✭
    blindraise wrote: »
    @RCP Coach - Fausto Valdez

    If you were aware of a players current mood-state, would you use that to your advantage?

    Yeah it will alter how i play for sure
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Even existing players change sometimes from day to day based on their moods or current life situation.

    Not to mention what they have learned about poker (rightly or wrongly) since yesterday. Very true. There is a saying "You can't step in the same river twice". Figure that out and you'll see how it applies to poker. (This is why you can never know your current win rate, for example.)

    Absolutely! Its our job to use the variables presented to us and employ a strategy
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  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,032 -
    I reckon the worst side effect of it all is though is trying to pay attention to every action in the game while some bloke next to me wants to have a friendly conversation! @SplitSuit always mentions that we want to keep people happy and chatty at the table so i try to converse but it really is beyond distracting at times!

    Feel like im digressing now haha

    People LOVE talking about themselves. Just feed them questions and they will do most of the heavy lifting for you =)
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14
    Dale Carnegie made a career out of writing and lecturing about salesmanship and interpersonal skills. His book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" was written in 1936 and has sold well for over 80 years straight. Time Magazine compiled a list of the 100 most influential books of all time and it was number 19, and a Library of Congress survey ranked it seventh. It is #14 on Amazon's Most Read list - today. Check out the topics in the section Six Ways to Make People Like You and you'll see what SplitSuit is talking about because obviously these concepts are timeless.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People#Six_Ways_to_Make_People_Like_You
  • Mandy_LetteriMandy_Letteri New ZealandRed Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Dale Carnegie made a career out of writing and lecturing about salesmanship and interpersonal skills. His book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" was written in 1936 and has sold well for over 80 years straight. Time Magazine compiled a list of the 100 most influential books of all time and it was number 19, and a Library of Congress survey ranked it seventh. It is #14 on Amazon's Most Read list - today. Check out the topics in the section Six Ways to Make People Like You and you'll see what SplitSuit is talking about because obviously these concepts are timeless.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People#Six_Ways_to_Make_People_Like_You

    This is a great idea and good homework! I think as usually the youngest player it is hard to know how to interact with everyine else at the table, keep track of the action, and also not seem blunt and unfriendly.

    @SplitSuit i Will definitely be turning the tables next time and try and get them talking instead of me shortly answering theirs.
    Cheers!! Everyone!
  • SixthStreetSixthStreet Red Chipper Posts: 254 ✭✭
    edited August 1
    blindraise wrote: »
    "Theres a lady in my poker room, a reg, deep pockets, unstudied, extremely thin, lots of overcalls."

    I played with a gal like this. Very nice lady usually under influence at table, but when she didn't run good all loved her. When she ran good older reg men would get mad. I just folded a lot till her run good changed.
    Plus dealers loved her. I seen her hit a huge pot leave about 1/2 behind for dealer.
    Bottom less purse and was having good time every-time.

    I make a general assumption of a player type by gender and age, but like OP said I too always sit back a few orbits and watch sometimes they are opposites.

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