Is the Turn call a mistake

AceBalaAceBala Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
Hi,
Here is one of the hand in a home game .50 /1

Hero has a stack around $240
Villain has a stack of around $360 . He has a wide range of hands. I have seen him doing semi bluff to build the pots frequently.

SB - .50
BB - 1
UTG -1
Villain -1
Hero [ :As :JH: ] : Calls $1 [This home game , threshold to eliminate players are at $25+ range, Don't want to call that much being in the mid position, So wanted to take the game to post flop, So didn't raise in this spot]
Button called all other folded ( 6 Players)

POT : $6

Flop :JD: :5C: :3H:

SB- Checks
BB- Checks
UTG - Checks
Villain - Checks
Hero - Raise to $6 ( I think , I should have raised big here, At that time didn't think about the straight option but thought no flush and wanted to invite a call, So went small)

SB, BB, Folds
UTG - Calls
Villain Calls
POT: $24

Turn :AD:

UTG Checks
Villain Bets :$24
UTG folds

POT : $72
Hero : Calls [ didn't think what he was raising with his hands, As its Just $25 and I hit two pair. I called here. But when reviewing my handoff table, I think villain is trying to build the Pot on chasing something or he made his two pair. Also occasionally he may slop play his made set.]

River :8D:

Villain Bets: $75
Hero ?

My thought process during the table, Villain bluffs very less. He only does this with a made hand. There is Flush on the board and Straight on the board and the Cards i can beat are very less , Only 12 combos A3 and A5 i beat all other combo ( Lot more for flush , As he is capable of play 24 Suited as well) I am beaten. The combo i beat is more than the combos i am lost.So I decided to fold. I exposed my card to villain and asked him would he show his card. He said its going to cost $75. I guessed he is confident with his hand and I folded.

Came back Home and did the Off table Analysis.

Villains range is for sure ( 55,33,A5s,75S,64S,53s, and 42s). Poker cruncher gave me 48% Equity on the Turn and 38% on the river.

I felt like its a good fold, I think my turn call is also good in this situation As any raise would have made me to put more money and he is not going anywhere most of the time and the river bet is going to be pot size and i will be in the same situation.

After some time villain asked me why didn't i re-raise on the Turn? Not sure why he said that.. Any comments?

Comments

  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 327 ✭✭✭
    Since we don't have position of V, just a bit of confusion to start. Did UTG and V limp in, or is this a double straddle game?
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    AceBala wrote: »

    He has a wide range of hands. I have seen him doing semi bluff to build the pots frequently.

    The first note on V is that semi-bluffs often.
    AceBala wrote: »

    My thought process during the table, Villain bluffs very less. He only does this with a made hand.

    ....

    Villains range is for sure ( 55,33,A5s,75S,64S,53s, and 42s). Poker cruncher gave me 48% Equity on the Turn and 38% on the river.

    And now later we say that V is not bluffing enough. The range we have assigned V here has only 2 combos of Ax holdings as you note it is just A5s (so just A5hh and A5ss). V never has other aces here? V never has diamond draws that do not have a straight draw? I think you are discounting a lot of hands that Hero is massively ahead of here with top two pair.

    A lot of V love to limp with a wide array of Ax and suited hands; because this is a limped hand, V is going to have a pretty wide range. And I think that's why you're confused as what to do - why limp this hand? Why is it a superior play to raising or folding pre flop? The price you have to set is a pretty hefty price relative to the blinds, sure, but that doesn't mean its optimal to limp and play postflop with more players.

    I would encourage you to take a look at what range an average V in your game is going to limp with, take that 3 times and run that vs AJo in poker cruncher. Just see how your equity vs that range goes down vs the range vs 1 opponent, then 2, then 3, etc. Then decide if you'd be better of raising to isolate, limping, or folding.

    Now when we get to the river, if by the range you set (which I think is pessimistic), you can calculate if you have enough equity to profitably call.

    You can use the EV formula to determine whether this is going to net you $ in the long run or not.

    So I would plug in the #s into EV = (%W * $W) - (%L * $L) and see what the EV is on a call here. If you need help understanding, SplitSuit has a really simple and effective video on the topic that will help you understand this formula if you do not already.

    https://www.splitsuit.com/simple-poker-expected-value-formula

    Look into that and see what you get.
  • AceBalaAceBala Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Paul_K wrote: »
    Since we don't have position of V, just a bit of confusion to start. Did UTG and V limp in, or is this a double straddle game?

    They both limped in
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 327 ✭✭✭
    edited July 23
    Ok. Well, Jordan pretty much covered it, but you’re reasoning for not raising pre doesn’t cut the mustard. If, instead of UTG, btn or sb or bb become your villain in this hand, do you still like your limp? Do you still just brush it aside and move on to post analysis?

    So you expect the 2 players in front to limp/call a raise oop with a weaker range? Great!

    Inviting everyone behind you to come along and surrendering your position is not so great.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭✭
    I like how a pot bet size bet is seen as "small" :0)

    Also the Hero limp and its reasons show a strong lack of skills.
    Just as basic question: would you limp with AA or KK ? Why / why not ? (Then expand this same question with lower combos.)
    All together, I'd advise you to start studying poker to build good bases, starting with ABC poker. Posting hands but not studying in parallel will give you very little plus-value.
  • AceBalaAceBala Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    @Jordan Power First, Thanks for your analysis! My biggest mistake is allowing limper. That is why @Red also laughed at me and said go back to Basics. One of the suggestions in my earlier post where I said not much pain threshold in these home games where everyone limps in whatever the raise , Someone suggested taking the game post-flop. May be i misunderstood the statement.
    Now when we get to the river, if by the range you set (which I think is pessimistic), you can calculate if you have enough equity to profitably call.
    Why do you think my range is pessimistic , What would be the Realistic range to put the villain in?
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    I don't think it would benefit you much to get into a specific range analysis of V here given that we've already made a mistake in allowing it to be so wide.

    But typically, V is going to have some single pair Ax holdings, some diamond draws without a straight draw or a pair to go along with it, and some of the holdings you noted. But V is also going to probably have some absolute junk here too.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23
    AceBala wrote: »
    @Jordan Power First, Thanks for your analysis! My biggest mistake is allowing limper. That is why @Red also laughed at me and said go back to Basics. One of the suggestions in my earlier post where I said not much pain threshold in these home games where everyone limps in whatever the raise , Someone suggested taking the game post-flop. May be i misunderstood the statement.
    It's not because there is no preflop pain threshold that you shall not bet !

    Reasony to bet is to deny equity (make them fold) and/or to build the pot (make them call).
    It's not because you can't deny equity (they never fold) that you shall not bet for value - esp. if they are prone to play any junky hand they like, in which case AJo is way ahead of. If you have no FE, then you just don't play bad or marginal hands, esp. OOP. Play linear or merged. Bet with strong hands, call with marginal hands depending on pot odds, fold all the trash. Easy boring game.
    This hand should have been played: Hero opens pre (like 4bb) and then bet/bet/bet postflop. No brain journey to value town.

    Also if you don't open pre, it will be hard to build a big pot. Betting 3x 60% with a flop pot of 5bb or 20bb makes a huge difference in the money you win at the end. (=pot geometry issue)
  • AceBalaAceBala Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Thanks @Jordan Power and @red for being specific..This makes sense...looks like you thought me one of the core lesson..

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