Pot control check river or Barrel?

F0gh0rn1egh0rnF0gh0rn1egh0rn Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
Table has played Fit or Fold and I feel I have a big advantage post flop against the table as a whole. We are playing $1/3 NLHE and I have about $800. I raise pre to $15 from BB with :2s :2c . I get 3 callers for a pot of $61. Flop comes :Ah :8h :7d . Flop checks around. Turn :8c . I lead out for $30. First actor to my left who is UTG +1 raises to $80. The two other players fold leaving us heads up. I then re-raise to $180. He tanks for about 3 mins and calls. The river comes :2d . I elect to check. He checks behind and I win. My reason for checking was that I didn't think I would get called by enough weaker hands and I wanted to allow for a missed double draw to bluff the river. Should I have bet the river?

Comments

  • MrFussMrFuss Red Chipper Posts: 81 ✭✭
    You said you raised from BB. Does this mean that the 3 callers had originally limped in?
  • F0gh0rn1egh0rnF0gh0rn1egh0rn Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    @MrFuss yes. This table limped a lot.
  • wescrowescro Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Against more skilled competition, I think there's a case to be made to check and let V make an ill-timed bluff on a scary board. But in this case, against an UTG-limper (someone who isn't as likely to show aggression), I think a bet to put pressure on V is the right play. Plus, that deuce OTR is almost always a blank, especially with the line you took. So what does he raise and then call the re-raised turn with that folds after the deuce falls?
  • RyanH1995RyanH1995 Red Chipper Posts: 47 ✭✭
    I think your hand is too weak to raise over 3 limpers especially from the BB. As played I don't think the turn is a good card for you to lead as you are not isolating pre flop with many hands that include an 8. Your opponents limping ranges include plenty of hands like 87, 86, T8 that they would check on the flop and raise your turn lead with. When you hit your boat on the river I would also lean towards betting as I don't think many opponents are going to bluff missed heart draws in a $1/3 game after you showed a lot of strength on the turn.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Why in Splitsuit's name are we reraising the turn?

    Also, I would check the option and take the free flop with 22. What is the thought of raising? And if we are going to raise, why only 5x after 3 limpers? Who is going to fold their limping range to this raise? People are limping because they want to see cheap flops. 4-6x is typically what they want to pay for the see this flop because most rec players tie specific hands to specific dollar values and they live in fear of being 3 bet and having to fold their hand. This raise is almost never going to steal those limps and often you are going to go MW. Granted, if you spike a 2 that isn't a bad thing, but more often we won't and now we are left OOP MW with fourth pair.
  • F0gh0rn1egh0rnF0gh0rn1egh0rn Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    @wescro @RyanH1995 @Jordan Power I'm re-raising the turn because I have no showdown val and I dont think he will will bluff 5bet me. If he calls, then I bluff all in the river if I brick because again I wouldn't have showdown value. I raise in the BB because going forward I can rep the top of my range, which also gives my turn re-raise more credit. AGAIN I have an edge postflop against the table on postflop play, for this reason I look to inflate the preflop pot and steal it on the flop or turn. I'm not trying to steal blinds as 1 of you suggested, this isn't a tourney I dont care about the blinds. I'm trying to build a big pot wherein a novice player will make a larger mistake. Was my river check wrong? I need advice from some1 that crushes $1/3 like I do. I'll post my stats. I average $41/hr.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 327 ✭✭✭
    @F0gh0rn1egh0rn ... you have a unique way of thanking those that take the time to give a thoughtful response to your post.

    If you're looking for a "crusher" that shares your affection for playing small PP's oop in multiway, bloated pots... you should settle in, winter is on its way.
  • F0gh0rn1egh0rnF0gh0rn1egh0rn Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    @wescro @RyanH1995 @Jordan Power @Paul_K My bad thanks for your input it's just not useful, I'm asking about what to do on the river given the moves that have been made. Not asking for evaluation of the hand previous to the river. I understand that playing a hand is telling a story but the story has already been told, given that, what should the conclusion be? Also, @Paul_K I don't always raise pre from BB with 22. I don't always do anything in poker. I adjust to the players at the table and If your judgement assumes that my preflop raise should never be done fundamentally then you also are not the person from which I am seeking advice.
  • F0gh0rn1egh0rnF0gh0rn1egh0rn Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    @wescro @Paul_K @RyanH1995 @Jordan Power I guess I'm more frustrated with the platform than you guys. I'm sorry to come off the way I did as I re-read my posts. I was hoping that when I started paying for this site I could pop in ask a question get a response from a pro and get back to researching other things. I'm sorry. I was rude.
  • ulysses27ulysses27 Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    I'm not sure you would've gotten that much more value on the river. Thinking about villains range I was thinking what kind of hands would he limp in with and then make those bets with. Maybe some sort of heart combo, a straight draw, a flush draw or both, Ace with a weak kicker or maybe k7 or Q7. Since you showed so much strength on the flop and turn and the pot is pretty big what kind of weaker hands is he calling with? I can only come up with Ax.
  • F0gh0rn1egh0rnF0gh0rn1egh0rn Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    @ulysses27 that's what I was thinking. He only calls with like A8suited given the preflop raise and turn action. Also, I want to allow big double draws that miss the river to bluff after I show weakness by checking the river.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 327 ✭✭✭
    Do you realize there is a vital piece of info missing from your OP?
  • F0gh0rn1egh0rnF0gh0rn1egh0rn Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 327 ✭✭✭
    @Paul_K what's that?

    Oh, no no no :-)
    If your judgement assumes that my preflop raise should never be done fundamentally

    Of course a preflop raise can be in order in this spot. It's your intention behind it that I don't agree with.

    It's cool, we don't always have to agree with each other. And we certainly can pick and choose the advice given. It seems like you didn't genuinely mean to be rude to the previous posters, so, also cool.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    The pros do get involved in the forum but not always. Sometime just us schlubs will respond...
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 327 ✭✭✭
    The pros do get involved in the forum but not always. Sometime just us schlubs will respond...

    Sad but true. There's a reason the forum is free of charge.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,280 -
    The pros do get involved in the forum but not always. Sometime just us schlubs will respond...

    Point of information.

    Every post in this forum is read by a coach and/or someone whose sole source of income for over a decade came from playing poker. They do not comment on every thread simply because the "schlubs" include some talented poker theorists who invariably give solid advice.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Oh thanks, Kat, I didn’t know that. I also should note I was referring solely to myself as the schlub ;)
  • MrFussMrFuss Red Chipper Posts: 81 ✭✭
    edited July 27
    Before digging into the hand, I think theres some things to consider besides "did I miss an opportunity to make more $". On a river card that could only be good for hero, after V tanked on the turn, I have to assume hero is ahead. You described the table as "fit or fold" and weak overall. In this type of game, is V willing to push a big river bluff across the felt? I think its unlikely so trying to bait V doesnt seem realistic.

    Also, I think there is some value in not getting to showdown, especially in this type of scenario where you ran a big bluff. Denying your opponents free info is always nice. When you muck your cards and rake the big pot, its going to get in V's head and depending on the player will have varying effect on his game.

    Ok, the hand.

    V originally limps in. Its hard to say what his range is initially but we'll go with this.

    c172uh9tldsa.png

    Lets give V some credit when he calls the raise with limpers behind and we can narrow down the range a little.

    79c8ejdow1tt.png

    On the flop, based on your "fit or fold" description, with straight and flush draws on the board I think V would bet top pair+. Since it was checked around we can eliminate those hands from his range.

    qe86bv9xf0o8.png

    Hero leads out on the turn and V raises, then calls heros big reraise. There just arent many hands in Vs range left. I think V would have shoved if he had an 8 so we can eliminate any hands with an 8. I dont think he'd make the call with any small pocket pairs. We're left with only straight and flush draws. Some of the flush draws include a 7. If hero is known to be aggressive it would make sense for V to raise with a draw when the turn pairs the board and hero had checked the flop.

    aj79qsiobcpc.png

    Obviously on the river V has missed his draws and the best hand he can have is a pair of 7s. I doubt V calls a river bet with only 7s but you never know in these home games. If you make it cheap enough he may make a hero call with his bluff catcher and as they say, "curiosity killed the cat". Something like 1/4 - 1/3 pot may do the job and as mentioned above theres the added benefit of not showing your hand if V does fold. I dont think theres any reason to worry about being called by better hands. Any hands that beat hero would have shoved the turn.
  • F0gh0rn1egh0rnF0gh0rn1egh0rn Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    MrFuss wrote: »
    Before digging into the hand, I think theres some things to consider besides "did I miss an opportunity to make more $". On a river card that could only be good for hero, after V tanked on the turn, I have to assume hero is ahead. You described the table as "fit or fold" and weak overall. In this type of game, is V willing to push a big river bluff across the felt? I think its unlikely so trying to bait V doesnt seem realistic.

    Also, I think there is some value in not getting to showdown, especially in this type of scenario where you ran a big bluff. Denying your opponents free info is always nice. When you muck your cards and rake the big pot, its going to get in V's head and depending on the player will have varying effect on his game.

    Ok, the hand.

    V originally limps in. Its hard to say what his range is initially but we'll go with this.

    c172uh9tldsa.png

    Lets give V some credit when he calls the raise with limpers behind and we can narrow down the range a little.

    79c8ejdow1tt.png

    On the flop, based on your "fit or fold" description, with straight and flush draws on the board I think V would bet top pair+. Since it was checked around we can eliminate those hands from his range.

    qe86bv9xf0o8.png

    Hero leads out on the turn and V raises, then calls heros big reraise. There just arent many hands in Vs range left. I think V would have shoved if he had an 8 so we can eliminate any hands with an 8. I dont think he'd make the call with any small pocket pairs. We're left with only straight and flush draws. Some of the flush draws include a 7. If hero is known to be aggressive it would make sense for V to raise with a draw when the turn pairs the board and hero had checked the flop.

    aj79qsiobcpc.png

    Obviously on the river V has missed his draws and the best hand he can have is a pair of 7s. I doubt V calls a river bet with only 7s but you never know in these home games. If you make it cheap enough he may make a hero call with his bluff catcher and as they say, "curiosity killed the cat". Something like 1/4 - 1/3 pot may do the job and as mentioned above theres the added benefit of not showing your hand if V does fold. I dont think theres any reason to worry about being called by better hands. Any hands that beat hero would have shoved the turn.

    I greatly appreciate the breakdown. The guy had pocket 9's btw. Again I appreciate it a lot.
  • MrFussMrFuss Red Chipper Posts: 81 ✭✭
    edited July 27
    Ah I was hoping you would let us know what V had lol. So hard to read weaker players hands. I would never give a limper 99. Sounds like a nice honey pot :)
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's a lot of button clicking going on in the hand and in the comments, but i'm not getting into it. The simple answer requested is: bet river.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file