Two Pair on the River (+Mindset)

talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
I have never been a tilty player, back when I used to only play tournaments. If I got knocked out of the tournament, I either knew I got it in good or learned from the knock out hand and moved on. But this transition to cash has been difficult.

The last few session have started roughly the same way. I watch an opponent for a while, figure out a strategy and go to work, only to get in a hand like this ...



Preflop UTG raise with A10s 6-handed. I think this is standard. I thought about 4-betting but I didn't want to play a big pot OOP.

On the Flop I thought about check-raise but I'd rather keep AJ-AK and 88-99 in his range.

On the Turn I guess this is where I was a little suspicious, but folding TPTK to every position turn bet is going to lose me money in the long run, I think.

On the River So this is where I honestly get really fucking angry and things feel rather hopeless for the rest of the day. I was FULLY prepared to fold to a 3rd barrel on this table against this field of players. Why does that Ace have to hit here?

For you guys, does this qualify as a cooler?

Is there a way you would honestly play it differently post-flop.

Thanks. I usually end up making the money back after a few hours but it really "takes the wind out of my sails."

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭✭
    What does he pot on river with ?
  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    edited August 2
    That's a good point. I guess its probably selection bias (like these are the ones that I remember the most), but it seems like a lose a lot of money when hitting two-pair on river in these unfortunate spots.

    So basically you're folding river every time here because EVERY Ace other than A7 checks back?
  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    edited August 2
    One hour later ...

    3 tables left in 250 person tournament



    Shove on flop?

    Either way I should have folded turn lead bet and kept my 100k/23BBs/tournament life.

    This was a bad play.

    Today has been a rough day.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your cbet makes little sense and your response to the texture on the turn is a punt here in hand 2.

  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    Yeah you're right. The more I think about it the more I realize that basically the villain was TELLING me that he has an overpair beat.

    My biggest mistake was not taking a few seconds to realize I still had over 20BB's if I fold the turn.

    Bad play. Not playing great poker today. Maybe time to quit and do something else for today.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,716 -
    Red wrote: »
    What does he pot on river with ?

    Does V not have some bluffs here?
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,716 -
    And a general point... I think the OP mentioned playing $1/$3 live? If so, these guys you're meeting at $50NL online are probably way tougher than you're used to.
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  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    @TheGameKat Yeah everyone on this site keeps saying that but I kept the table open even after leaving it and I saw this villain spew chips on all kinds of hands, ultimately losing his stack after getting it in preflop with K9o against AKs fairly deep stacked.

    Also, just as a population yes these players are better than live. But more than half are just staring digital daggers at each other waiting for premiums.

    I guess its just a weird polarized combination of TAG robots and crazies, with a very thin pool of players in the middle. I haven't really mixed it up too much with the super tight players in a couple sessions. With the other side of the player pool I guess there's just more variance. (not to say I couldn't have played the original hand on this thread better)
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,716 -
    Fortunately there are crazies both live and online at all limits.
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  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    What does he pot on river with ?

    Does V not have some bluffs here?

    Yeah I must admit that one of my big tournament leaks is I usually assume a big stacked player is more aggressive.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,716 -
    talonjohn wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    What does he pot on river with ?

    Does V not have some bluffs here?

    Yeah I must admit that one of my big tournament leaks is I usually assume a big stacked player is more aggressive.

    Was actually referring to the cash hand.
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  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    talonjohn wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    What does he pot on river with ?

    Does V not have some bluffs here?

    Yeah I must admit that one of my big tournament leaks is I usually assume a big stacked player is more aggressive.

    Was actually referring to the cash hand.

    Oh yeah, oops.

    That's the heart of the matter right? But which bluffs would have 3-bet pre and kept up the aggression? QJs, KQo?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,716 -
    talonjohn wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    talonjohn wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    What does he pot on river with ?

    Does V not have some bluffs here?

    Yeah I must admit that one of my big tournament leaks is I usually assume a big stacked player is more aggressive.

    Was actually referring to the cash hand.

    Oh yeah, oops.

    That's the heart of the matter right? But which bluffs would have 3-bet pre and kept up the aggression? QJs, KQo?

    If he's 3-betting 97s pre he has the OESD and a bunch of gutshots that might take that line.
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  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    Only 98s or 98o
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,716 -
    talonjohn wrote: »
    Only 98s or 98o

    Throw in J9s and maybe J8s and compare that to how many 7s and 22/TT he shows up with given you block a T. I dunno I just don't think check-calling top 2 can be a huge mistake here against a creative opponent.

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  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    Thanks for the encouragement. However (and maybe its selection bias towards the losing hands) the last few sessions have had at least one of these per session, and I'm always crushed to either trips or runner runner flush.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    What does he pot on river with ?

    Does V not have some bluffs here?

    V is very aggro pre (HUD stats) but we don't see any info about postflop.
    There are combos we beat, and I think esp. at improved AX (AK/AQ) and busted draw (OESD, gutshot) and now PP JJ-KK. Yet firing KK or AK is very thin value.

    Hero called twice OOP on a dry and fairly static board in a 3bet pot. What does Hero has : JJ, TX (MP / top 2P), boats, maybe a rare trips.
    Does V still have FE when emptying the clip : is it thinking that river A will change much compare to flop/turn and he could bluff profitably 98s or J9s ? Or will V just let it go and only bet linear with a pure value range ?

    Bottom line, I think we are behind any value V could fire with. We need V to bluff - and bluff enough - to call; which is the big question.
    If it a yes, then we can call - and ATs is the best hand to call with as it blocks AA and TT. But as bluff catcher it depends on V three-barrel bluff propensity.
  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    I just read the above post 3 times, lol. Thanks a lot for the great feedback!
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,716 -
    talonjohn wrote: »
    I just read the above post 3 times, lol. Thanks a lot for the great feedback!

    I dunno what we'd do without him.
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  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭✭
  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    Unrelated question. The 6-max tables I play often shrink to 5 or even 4 players. What do you guys do in that situation? Open up open raising range or just leave and find another full table?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,716 -
    talonjohn wrote: »
    Unrelated question. The 6-max tables I play often shrink to 5 or even 4 players. What do you guys do in that situation? Open up open raising range or just leave and find another full table?

    Really depends what you're comfortable with. When I used to multi-table LHE 6-max I used to prefer players to leave as I felt I was better than the opposition down to 3-handed. But yes, the reduction in the number of players will impact your preflop ranges.
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  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2
    The cash hand is fine. Many of his naked triples now improve and all hero's Ax is supposed to fold on the turn, allowing him to bluff and value large on this card. If you're going to make a hero fold, the time is the turn as you block some of his bluffs.
  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    Interesting. How many people are check-raising here?

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