Should AA always be 4bet?

NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 76 ✭✭
Not sure if this should go in general strategy or not but I thought I would start here as it was a specific hand that prompted the thought.

Live 2/5

Last hand for me. I had almost all of my chips already racked up to go.

Hero UTG stack equals about 1k
Villain 1 - button with about $600
Villain 2 - SB with about $400

I have played with V1 before and he seems like a solid player. Well thought and I haven't seen him get out of line

Never before played with V2. Younger guy, some other players at the table called him fish when he sat down. At first I thought it was sarcastic but after playing about 10 hands it seemed like he was just passive loose and then sometimes aggresive loose...not tight at all.

I look at :spade:heart UTG and make it $15. Folds to button who 3 bets to $45, small blind calls $45. I then 4bet to $200. The reason I 4 bet is I want to shed the SB. I think the button is pretty strong and I have no idea what the SB could be calling the 3 bet with, definitiely a very wide range.

Is there another line here I might take? Maybe 4 bet to $150? But then if the button calls, it gives the SB more incentive to call.


Anyway, this got me thinking, is it ever a good idea to just call a 3bet with AA? The only thing I could think of is maybe in this situation if the SB folds and I am heads up with the button?

Or maybe another situation where I know the V2 better and can put him on a more accurate or more narrow range?

Any thoughts on my line here would be appreciated. I think I played it properly but being so new I am never sure on my play.

Thank you

Comments

  • BartholomewBartholomew Red Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    edited August 8
    I see no reason to try to push out V2. You have a premium hand and if they're going to call with a wide range, that's even better for you. Yes, they'll occasionally win, but not often enough for you to be concerned.

    Also, if either of them call, the SPR is going to be so low that you're basically committed to playing for their stacks. If V1 calls, there will be $400 in the pot with $400 in their stack. If V2 calls, there will be $400 in the pot with $200 in their stack.

    What's your plan for the flop? If V1 calls, does V2 calling change that plan?

    Edit: I'm also always going to four bet with Aces.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 76 ✭✭
    I'm shoving every flop with one or 2 callers. With less than 1 SPR I don't see any other option.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 76 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    No.

    No there is no other option or no I am wrong?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm answering the question: no, aces should not always be 4b.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 76 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    I'm answering the question: no, aces should not always be 4b.

    Hmmmm, ok. Would you care to elaborate? There are other questions in my OP that I think there is a situation where they should not be 4 bet.

  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 76 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Basically you want to consider the call with AA when you aren't incentivized to have a 4betting range. Otherwise the nuts should always be raised, just as you would not check them back on the river.

    Here you are clearly incentivized to have a raising range. 1) you are oop, 2) there is potential dead money to capture, and 3) you are deep enough to leave options to the other players. There are probably more reasons but that is plenty!

    Awesome, thank you!
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,842 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Villain 2 - SB with about $400

    The reason I 4 bet is I want to shed the SB. I have no idea what the SB could be calling the 3 bet with, definitiely a very wide range.

    Maybe 4 bet to $150? But then if the button calls, it gives the SB more incentive to call.

    If the SB is willing to put in almost half his stack with a hand that's so far behind me, then I'm willing to go broke against him on the rare occasions he makes yahtzee. (It's only fair!) While dead money is never bad money, I don't see any reason you should try to make the SB play better. We are talking about brute force, large numbers at this point. What you give up in subtlety of play and information about the SB's range, you gain in raw equity with relatively little money left to go, and deep money is where the risk tends to be in these situations. You are playing an SPR of much less than 1 against the SB. So this is one of those classic no lose situations - if SB folds you're pretty happy for the dead money, and if he calls you're pretty happy for the equity advantage in a larger pot. You would have to do some calculations and make some (potentially wrong) assumptions to determine which you actually prefer he do, but I suspect a call is preferred.

    I also would not always 4-bet aces, especially if heads up at certain stack depths when I feel that my opponent would believe my cards are face up. I will 4 bet with more than aces, but if my opponent believes I will not, then I can't always do it on those occasions I actually have AA. I never cease to be surprised at tables where if anyone ever 4-bets, "it's aces, for sure". Of course this is an advantage if I just have AK and he folds QQ. In your situation I can't really imagine not 4-betting.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 76 ✭✭
    TY, I have 4bet hands other than KK+, AK but not often. Seems like I do I am always put on AA...
  • Cracked_Jacks11Cracked_Jacks11 Red Chipper Posts: 47 ✭✭
    In my experience, low-stakes games very rarely see 4-bets with anything weaker than KK. For that reason, There are a few spots where I would not 4-bet with AA, but they are not common.

    1) I would always 4-bet when there was more than one opponent.
    2) I would always 4-bet if I were OOP.
    3) I would always 4-bet against an opponent who 3-bets frequently.

    These 3 "always" situations might not actually be 100% of the time, but as I sit here I can't think of an example where they aren't true.

    An example of an occasion where I would possibly flat with AA might be something like this:
    I open AA UTG, folds to the SB who 3-bets. BB folds. I may just call there to play in position and let him keep firing rather than 4-betting and giving him a chance to make a good lay-down with QQ or KK.
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    i was gonna comment but i simply just agree with everything that @persuadeo said here
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