Pair on flop against two limpers

SenhouseSenhouse Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
This kind of situation has come up a few times and I would love to know the best way to approach it. This is my first post here so be gentle! :)

1-3 NLHE. Two limpers in middle position with full stacks. I raise to $20 from the cutoff with KK. Only the limpers both call. The first limper has been playing somewhat wild - he cold called $20 and won a pot with 74o earlier. Pot is now $64.

Flop is QQ6 rainbow. Check to me, I bet $40. They both call. Pot is now $184.

Turn is offsuit 3. They check to me again, I check.

First player leads out for $120. We both fold.

I think I have a general problem playing three player pots. When I get called by both of the other players, I assume one of them has a good hand.
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Comments

  • Rich57Rich57 Red Chipper Posts: 110 ✭✭
    What were the stack sizes? You said the turn checked through but did not reveal the river card that V1 seems to have bet for 120. Just a bit more information would help.
  • SenhouseSenhouse Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Game was new which is why I said full stacks, $300 for 100 BB.

    I don’t remember precisely but the river card was not a face card.

    (I’m only 50 hours in and my mind is overwhelmed at the table, but I’m working at getting better at recording.)
  • Rich57Rich57 Red Chipper Posts: 110 ✭✭
    Don't feel bad, I am no wizard at posting properly. If the face card on the river was a K or Q its a shove (K) and either call or shove Q depending on your read. I would call a J as well. If he has AA or a Q, so be it. The AA seems very unlikely given his play and he could have walked into a Q but this looks like him taking a flyer to me
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The probability that you are beat rises as you decide to contort their ranges to strong hands by polarizing on the flop, then lowers when you check back turn. In other words, playing the guessing game on the end is the output of your strategy.
  • SenhouseSenhouse Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    The probability that you are beat rises as you decide to contort their ranges to strong hands by polarizing on the flop, then lowers when you check back turn. In other words, playing the guessing game on the end is the output of your strategy.

    So what line would you have taken? (Please no Socratic questioning, I want to hear what you would have done.


  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9
    Why would I give you my strategy?

    Non-Socratic, then: Basically 2/3 potting here at anything but the lowest frequency is trash, you can assume I wouldn't do it. So start there. Reason out why 2/3 is bleeding EV, and from there deduce the better options.
  • SenhouseSenhouse Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Why would I give you my strategy?

    Non-Socratic, then: Basically 2/3 potting here at anything but the lowest frequency is trash, you can assume I wouldn't do it. So start there. Reason out why 2/3 is bleeding EV, and from there deduce the better options.

    Are you taking about the bet on the flop?
  • SenhouseSenhouse Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Why did you take the time to respond at all? I said I was a new player and some of what you are saying is above my head and unhelpful.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sometimes I indeed wonder why, myself. But then I remember, it's not all about you, is it?

    I'll leave your threads alone from here on out, no worries.
  • SenhouseSenhouse Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    I’m just confused. Should newbies not post hands and ask questions?
  • RyanH1995RyanH1995 Red Chipper Posts: 58 ✭✭
    You are encouraged to post hands and ask questions but posters are often challenged to answer their own questions first rather than be given an answer or a specific strategy. This promotes meaningful discussion and helps everybody reading this forum learn including yourself. Sure someone can tell you what line to take in this hand but that won't help you or anyone else develop an overall strategy or sound thought process.

    After polarizing your range on the flop and narrowing down villain's range you face a big bet on the river with little information as to where you stand in this hand. Try to think about why your sizing on the flop wasn't ideal and what you could have done differently to avoid the situation you face on the river.
  • SenhouseSenhouse Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Ryan. I don't know how I "polarized my range on the flop". Are you saying my bet size did that? How? Maybe you all are not understanding how novice I am at this kind of stuff. Why would anyone think my opponents would notice anything about my bet size? I think the size of bet has zero impact on whether they call or not. (Are you assuming a tougher game than the game I'm playing in?)
  • RyanH1995RyanH1995 Red Chipper Posts: 58 ✭✭
    Yes your bet sizing polarizes your range on the flop. If you are going to use a large sizing like you did you should be betting less often compared to using a smaller sizing and betting more of your range more often. You must also consider the villain's limping ranges which will include lots of weak hands and small PP that you want calls from.
  • SenhouseSenhouse Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    I'm still not seeing how betting smaller changes anything. Let's say I bet $25 instead of $40. They both call, and now the pot has less in it. How does that change how I should approach the turn? Maybe I am just not anywhere close to ready to participate in the forum?
  • DavidDavid Red Chipper Posts: 60 ✭✭
    When you bet the flop did you want villains to fold, call, or check-raise?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,716 -
    edited August 11
    Senhouse wrote: »
    Ryan. I don't know how I "polarized my range on the flop". Are you saying my bet size did that? How? Maybe you all are not understanding how novice I am at this kind of stuff. Why would anyone think my opponents would notice anything about my bet size? I think the size of bet has zero impact on whether they call or not. (Are you assuming a tougher game than the game I'm playing in?)

    Right let's step back a bit here. This is an interesting hand which brings up some fundamental issues about NLHE. Some of our posters are familiar with those issues and others are not, so let's see if we can start to bring the latter up to speed.

    First, let's think about this:
    Senhouse wrote: »
    Why would anyone think my opponents would notice anything about my bet size?

    Even if your opponents are dreadful, they can't help but notice your bet size. You're offering them a wager and they have to decide whether or not to accept. In reaching that decision, their thought processes and reasoning may be largely wrong, but they will nevertheless have a reason.
    Senhouse wrote: »
    I think the size of bet has zero impact on whether they call or not.

    If you think this is the case, it suggests me you always bet about ~2/3 on the flop? I think we can all agree that if we bet $10 on this flop our opponents will react differently than if we bet $150, right? In the former case they will call nearly always and thus do so with a wide range. In the latter case they will do so rarely and with an extremely strong range -- possibly one that only includes hands that have us dead to 2 outs.

    Obviously I've given extreme options there, and it is plausible that in your specific game, your opponents will treat a $25 and $40 bet the same in this spot. However, if this is indeed the case, I'd also suspect they more commonly call it when they're strong. So if your opponents are oblivious to how much you bet, what size is better here? In other words, if you only get called when you're beat, would you rather bet $25 or $40? Or is there a better option?

    This is all tied up with the issue of polarization, but I think before we dig into that we'd do better to focus on:
    David wrote: »
    When you bet the flop did you want villains to fold, call, or check-raise?

    And the even more fundamental question: Why do we bet?

    I think in this hand if you start with asking why we bet at all, then think about what response you want from your opponents, and finally factor in this issue of how your bet size contorts their calling ranges, you'll be much further down this path.

    All that said, to some extent you've already figured part of this out:
    Senhouse wrote: »
    I think I have a general problem playing three player pots. When I get called by both of the other players, I assume one of them has a good hand.

    If you bet large on that flop texture and get called twice, assuming one of them has a good hand is a pretty sensible assumption. So the assumption isn't the problem.

    Also the following may be of interest:

    https://redchippoker.com/always-use-same-bet-size-podcast/
    Moderation In Moderation
  • SenhouseSenhouse Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
  • ulysses27ulysses27 Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    As somebody whose pretty new to poker as well I appreciate just wanting a definitive answer. But I've come to realize that by being pushed to discover the answers helps me understand the theory which is better in the end. Keep posting. It's helpful to everybody.

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