So you made a check-raise...now what?

Gameaholic21Gameaholic21 New JerseyRed Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
I have gotten more comfortable check-raising and identifying good spots to do so as I continue to study my game. While I am sure I can continue to improve on this, the increased check-raising in my game has led to a new confusing spot - What to do on the next street after check-raising?

I don't currently have a hand example but I can post one when it comes up. But for now from a general concept perspective is it better to continue the aggression on the next street after check-raising (as I have now obviously showed interest in the board) or should I be looking for more spots to check again rather than leading out the next street and see what the player in position does after calling my check-raise?

I find most of the time after check-raising I'll lead out with a bet on the next street and take control of the action. Is this a good strategy, or should I be looking for more spots to check again and only continue aggression with a bet if I improve or if a scare card hits the next street? I imagine the right answer is a nice mix of each depending on the villain's player type and the board, so any discussion would help me out. Thanks

Comments

  • MrFussMrFuss Red Chipper Posts: 138 ✭✭
    edited August 12
    This is too vague and there's no concise answer here. Its all very situational. Based on they way you propose this question I think you have a lot of work to do regarding how you think of certain spots. You've thrown a blanket over a situation which has lots of different considerations which you're ignoring. An example of this incorrect method of thinking is, "I have JJ, what do I do?". This is totally incomplete and not even a valid question. Everything in poker is situational and without the complete situation laid out there is no answer.

    Cash or MTT?
    Who's your opponent?
    Stack sizes?
    Pot size?
    Are you bluffing or betting for value?
    How did the turn card change the board?
    How did the turn card effect your range?
    I imagine the right answer is a nice mix of each depending on the villain's player type and the board, so any discussion would help me out. Thanks
    As stated this is absolutely correct but don't ask other people to do the work for you. Your essentially asking the forum to come up with fake scenarios and then explain how to play them. You need to put in your fair share amount of work.

    See this post from Doug Hull which further clarifies my point
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    1:01am (why this timestamp? See bottom)

    Why are clear, concise hand histories important to writer and the reader?

    In a word: Respect.

    No one is getting paid, with the possible exception of Kat, to read or respond to these posts. In spite of this, there is a ton of quality feedback and very little drivel.

    As someone that is asking the questions, your goal is to get this help. Attention is a finite resource and one you need to respect. Fairly often I will look in on a question and see it is poorly written and realize I will need to spend more time reading (and rereading it) to *maybe* answer the question the poster was trying to ask. These poorly written posts do not respect my time as an answerer. I will often skip them or if in a particularly feisty mood, I will parse them and rewrite them to model good behavior.

    When you post a poorly formatted question, the five minutes you "saved" by not going back to edit and make sure the post is clear will be "wasted" by 50 potential answerers. As a questioner, your editing time is leveraged by this multiple reader effect, this should encourage you to really be clear in posting questions.

    There is no shortage of questions, the shortage is of good answers. Making your question clear shows respect and that means you are far more likely to get what you seek: a good answer or multiple answers.

    Why the timestamp at the top? That is when I started writing this. It is now 1:23am. Twenty-two minutes to write even this, because I want to respect my readers by making sure I am clear.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great question.
    should I be looking for more spots to check again and only continue aggression with a bet if I improve or if a scare card hits the next street?
    This is closer to the right answer and should be the path you go down and refine your thoughts on. The key will be recontexualizing "scare card" into a range vs range idea, as well focusing on why a xr might go in originally.
  • PapaGiorgioPapaGiorgio Red Chipper Posts: 81 ✭✭
    Like @MrFuss suggests, the topic is more complex than a simple "always do this" answer. A big part of your plan for the next street pertains to what you were trying to accomplish in the first place when you xR the flop (or turn). Were you xR to build a big pot? Were you xR as a semibluff? These answers depend on what your opponent would do. For example, if your opponent cbets 70% of hands, but then only continues with 20% of this range, then you could plan to xR regardless of your two cards to take advantage of his excessive folding. If he calls, then it doesn't make sense to continue the aggression as a bluff because his 20% (of 70% range) is likely top pair or plus it's unlikely that you would get a fold on later streets. On the other hand, if you have an opponent who cbets 70%, will always call a xR (because why not, he already put money into the pot), but then folds to a turn bet unless he has Top pair plus, then you can continue the aggression because of the fold equity that's now available.

    My opinion is that the 1/2 population tends to call xR too much (so their range is too wide) and then overfold to a turn bet. This is why you see it working -- you are exploiting their tendencies. Against a thinking opponent who notices what you are doing, you will start facing a 3B and/or facing a raise on the next street. Their play will likely be based on range vs range. Specifically, they'll know you are xR based on the board and will apply pressure when the next card doesn't appear to help your range. But by the time this happens, you have hopefully studied range advantage and have adjusted your xR and barrelling frequencies based on the board.
  • Gameaholic21Gameaholic21 New JerseyRed Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    @persuadeo @PapaGiorgio Thanks guys that makes a lot of sense. I'll start checking out the spot through the lenses you suggested and try to adjust accordingly. I appreciate the direction point!

    @MrFuss I'm aware it's situational, I was just trying to get a conversation started or a finger point in the right direction (Which I now have gotten). I mentioned in the OP I don't have any specific hand history I can discuss right now but will be happy to post it when it comes up for review. That's why I asked this in the "general concepts" category - Just asking about the general concept of the next street after a XR.

    Even with the lack of detailed information it is possible to get a discussion based on general concepts. For example if I asked "Is it generally better to C-bet or not?" This is again heavily dependent on the situations you laid out here as well
    Cash or MTT?
    Who's your opponent?
    Stack sizes?
    Pot size?
    Are you bluffing or betting for value?
    How did the turn card change the board?
    How did the turn card effect your range?

    Yet I think the answer could still be given and it would be a resounding "Yes - it's usually better to C-bet, here's some examples why and a good starting point to explore the spot further as it depends on situations" Same goes for a question like "Should I look to limp into more pots?" Again, there are situations that can be reviewed where the answer is actually yes a limp could be warranted, but from a general concept perspective, the answer given would be a resounding "No." I've seen general concepts discussed time and time again in the forum and was just asking for a point in the right direction of whether or not I should be looking for more spots to check after a c-bet given that I currently only exclusively look to bet again and keep the aggression going, a leak that I have identified in my game and needed a heading on how to sort out. I wasn't trying to ask for fake scenarios to be solved for me like you suggested, just trying to get my thinking in the right direction before heading off in the wrong one and not really solving the leak.

    That being said, I understand your point (and Doug's) about respect to the readers and will do my best to keep it in mind next time. And I mean no disrespect here with my response by any means and sincerely apologize if it came off that way - I just wanted to explain my rationale for asking the question the way I did in the OP which I felt has been a little misinterpreted
  • MrFussMrFuss Red Chipper Posts: 138 ✭✭
    edited August 13
    Yet I think the answer could still be given and it would be a resounding "Yes - it's usually better to C-bet, here's some examples why and a good starting point to explore the spot further as it depends on situations"
    In the most general sense, yes, if you x/r you probably want to bet the next street. When you bet its mostly either for value or as a bluff. If you x/r for value then you would want to continue extracting value on the next street. If you x/r as a bluff or semi-bluff, you want to bet the next street to continue telling the story of having a good hand as a bluff or because the next street filled your semi-bluff and you're now betting for value.

    x/r for value
    You flop a set and x/r. Bet the turn to continue extracting value.

    x/r as semi bluff
    You flop an OESD or FD. Bet the turn when your straight or flush hits for value.

    x/r as bluff
    Board pairs on the flop. You check raise to show strength on a scary board. Turn card is a blank. Bet as a bluff repping trips trying to get opponent to fold stronger hands.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    GH, your question is better than 100 hand histories, no one's time is wasted with conceptual questions. Doug's directive is on trashy hand histories.
  • MrFussMrFuss Red Chipper Posts: 138 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    GH, your question is better than 100 hand histories, no one's time is wasted with conceptual questions. Doug's directive is on trashy hand histories.
    While its true that Dougs post was directed towards hands histories I think this basic principle can be applied to any forum post requesting an answer.
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    As someone that is asking the questions, your goal is to get this help. Attention is a finite resource and one you need to respect. Fairly often I will look in on a question and see it is poorly written and realize I will need to spend more time reading (and rereading it) to *maybe* answer the question the poster was trying to ask. These poorly written posts do not respect my time as an answerer.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sure, and maybe I'm missing something, so I don't want to make a big deal out of it. I just wanted to encourage this poster and others along this track, which is much better than others.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,778 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Even though I also like concepts more than hand histories, it really is a very open ended question. Sometimes it's better to start with an example and extrapolate from that scenario for a concept that can guide your play in other hands that are either similar or different.

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